Next Manager

[valiant_593]

51 minutes ago, TJHValiant said:

I don’t think he will. Not unless we pay him a mega wage. I don’t think he is worth it either. I don’t think his style of football is much fun to watch and many of my main issues with Askey were not just the results but the quality. 

I’m quite certain the results was the issue. I couldn’t give a <ovf censored> if we play pulis ball all season as long as we start looking like a half decent side again that wins some matches. 
Out of interest, who would you like as manager? As in my opinion derek adams is quite clearly the top candidate 

[Essex Vale]

1 hour ago, valeparklife said:

Do you have a source for this? Interested to see!

I had a look on companies house but they pull Smurthwaite's trick of not being transparent and omitting the P&L from the report. They only display the balance sheet so I can't see salaries.

In Essex it is well known that the Colchester chairman, Robbie Cowling, had subsidised the club with large amounts of money each year.  He invested heavily in a youth training facility at Tiptree, a nearby town. 

It is fair to say that Colchester had a budget much bigger than their gates alone would support.  Any assessment of John McGreal's record must take this into account.  The level of subsidy is not readily apparent from the public accounts.

I agree that Mr McGreal is a credible candidate, but we need to dig much deeper into his background and achievements.   He bought Harry Pell, for example, for  a sum in excess of £100,000, and he would be on a big wage. Any manager in League 2 would have signed Pell if they could have afforded him.

I see other posts seek to credit him with developing young players and cite Sammie Szmodics. Sammie broke a leg, could not get back into the team and was heading for a free transfer.  They allowed him to go out on loan to a non league club from where he blossomed and became the fabulous player he is now.  Nothing to do with John McGreal.  The club Sammie went to was Braintree, the manager was Danny Cowley.

John McGreal gave a free transfer to Macauley Bonne who went on to score a bagful for Orient and was then sold for a big fee to Charlton.

As I say I am not anti McGreal, but we have to consider his whole record.  He has actually won nothing. He has finished in reasonable positions with a team that is subsidised, and that is just about it.

 

[darren1810]

1 hour ago, TJHValiant said:

Less enthusiastic about Derek Adams. He seems to me a limited manager for limited clubs. That’s not a bad thing for Morecambe, but his style of football isn’t great and reminds me of Graham Westley in that he makes teams hard to beat, but he would be found out in league 1. 
 

He wouldn’t set us up for beyond league 2 in my view. 
 

He took Plymouth backwards after getting them out of league 2 and their football regressed. 

'After getting them out of League 2 ' is the telling line there.

The first season with him in League one they came 7th and just missed the play-offs, how is that regression. You are right the season after wasn't great and they were relegated on goal difference. 

To call Plymouth a limited club is way off the mark, they are way bigger than us for example with huge gates and massive away support. Plymouth are far from limited.

Rather than looking at him being found out in League one our immediate concern is RIGHT NOW , League one is pie in the sky as we sit now.

[darren1810]

I'm actually at a loss to think who would fit for some.

We are not going to get a manager without some sort of failure or stagnation.

The man some are after doesn't exist .

[The Kalamazoo Kid]

Just now, Eddie Ford said:

Much bigger fan base. Better facilities. Bigger budget for players and his own wage. Amazing owners plus he might get the chance to meet Robbie Williams if he is lucky 

 

But he could prefer Gary Barlow! 😆

[tisdeano]

In Essex it is well known that the Colchester chairman, Robbie Cowling, had subsidised the club with large amounts of money each year.  He invested heavily in a youth training facility at Tiptree, a nearby town. 
It is fair to say that Colchester had a budget much bigger than their gates alone would support.  Any assessment of John McGreal's record must take this into account.  The level of subsidy is not readily apparent from the public accounts.
I agree that Mr McGreal is a credible candidate, but we need to dig much deeper into his background and achievements.   He bought Harry Pell, for example, for  a sum in excess of £100,000, and he would be on a big wage. Any manager in League 2 would have signed Pell if they could have afforded him.
I see other posts seek to credit him with developing young players and cite Sammie Szmodics. Sammie broke a leg, could not get back into the team and was heading for a free transfer.  They allowed him to go out on loan to a non league club from where he blossomed and became the fabulous player he is now.  Nothing to do with John McGreal.  The club Sammie went to was Braintree, the manager was Danny Cowley.
John McGreal gave a free transfer to Macauley Bonne who went on to score a bagful for Orient and was then sold for a big fee to Charlton.
As I say I am not anti McGreal, but we have to consider his whole record.  He has actually won nothing. He has finished in reasonable positions with a team that is subsidised, and that is just about it.
 

He took over pretty much when the chairman announced his first team budget reduction year on year , so basically each year had 300k taken away from first team for every year he managed there

[valeparklife]

27 minutes ago, Essex Vale said:

In Essex it is well known that the Colchester chairman, Robbie Cowling, had subsidised the club with large amounts of money each year.  He invested heavily in a youth training facility at Tiptree, a nearby town. 

It is fair to say that Colchester had a budget much bigger than their gates alone would support.  Any assessment of John McGreal's record must take this into account.  The level of subsidy is not readily apparent from the public accounts.

I agree that Mr McGreal is a credible candidate, but we need to dig much deeper into his background and achievements.   He bought Harry Pell, for example, for  a sum in excess of £100,000, and he would be on a big wage. Any manager in League 2 would have signed Pell if they could have afforded him.

I see other posts seek to credit him with developing young players and cite Sammie Szmodics. Sammie broke a leg, could not get back into the team and was heading for a free transfer.  They allowed him to go out on loan to a non league club from where he blossomed and became the fabulous player he is now.  Nothing to do with John McGreal.  The club Sammie went to was Braintree, the manager was Danny Cowley.

John McGreal gave a free transfer to Macauley Bonne who went on to score a bagful for Orient and was then sold for a big fee to Charlton.

As I say I am not anti McGreal, but we have to consider his whole record.  He has actually won nothing. He has finished in reasonable positions with a team that is subsidised, and that is just about it.

 

Good analysis! Raised some points I wasn't aware of at first! I do like McGreal's teams but it's like Guardiola, buy players that are better than everyone else and you don't need to be a great manager.

My realistic personal preference would be Parkinson or Grayson. I think the fans would buy into their approach.

Spending power should absolutely be taken into consideration for the next manager.

It always makes me laugh when people said Nathan Jones "did a great job at Luton" with back to back promotions.

A look into Luton's financial accounts showed their AVERAGE wage in L2 was £3,000 in 2017/18 (£6.1m budget!) and they spent £2m (TWO MILLION) in transfer fees from 2017 to 2019!

I'm sure if you gave any manager those kinds of funds they'd do a good job!

That's why it's hard to judge the McGreal's and Flitcroft's as they've not really managed on a level playing field.

[Joe B]

1 hour ago, MBE said:

I'm with you . I think its a lot different managing clubs expected to challenge where you to have to build a team to be brave enough to play on the front foot rather than playing the underdog.

And Plymouth have lower expectations than us?

It's all well and good living under the illusion that we're some big club with big expectations, but we've spent most of the last 5 years circling the non-league drain. It's wrong to assume that the Vale job is somehow tougher than the Morecambe job. I imagine their fans are just as demanding as we are.

Any new manager will be expected to wins games. I'm not fussed whether we park the bus or play Total Voetbal, Catenaccio or Tika Taka. Get me in the away end and get me some wins. Get us roughing up the league, and being the team opposition fans grimace at when they see the fixture list.

We've been far too rubbish for far too long to start getting choosy about what football we play. Let's get out of the division and then worry about the style. I'm genuinely not arsed about being on the front foot.

[blackdog]

Adams might not be interested now he's got Morecambe into a strong position, maybe a few months ago but not now, he might think that if he can get them up, then his stock will go up as well.

Also, in the future he might be looked at as a manager who is prepared to jump ship even when he's in a strong position. 

A great fit in December, but I don't think anything will come of it now.......Shame really.

 

[Joe B]

I for one think Adams is highly unlikely.

Managers aren't bothered about 'history'. It means very little to them at this level. At United or Liverpool, it's obviously a different story, but a few promotions in the late 80s/90s isn't going to influence a manager a jot. They're not bothered whether it's Port Vale or Scunthorpe or Leyton Orient or Bradford.

With the salary cap coming in as well, the 'larger budget' argument also falls flat.

The two things that influence a manager's decision are pay and the ability to improve their own stock. That's it. I don't think any are that bothered by 'projects', as the prospects of them being here more than three years are very remote. They want to make money and improve their CV, before the inevitable vicissitudes of football sees them out the door in a few years.

To attract Adams we'd need to substantially increase his pay, to offset the risk of coming to a club which is in need of a good sort out. I don't think we can provide that/it would be wise to do so.

However, some of the arguments against Adams (negative football, only good at limited clubs) are a bit nonsensical, and largely not factual.

[dishydave]

Adam's isn't coming to a club in a relegation battle it's that simple. He did that last year and look what he's achieved if he's going anywhere it's to league one.
I haven't got a clue who I'd want or who would want to come and if they did come who's to say they will be as good or bad at Vale as their previous job would predict. I've been troubled by the lack of an appointment as have a lot of other people but I wouldn't like to be the one who has to make the decision. It's not an easy one to make.

[TJHValiant]

1 hour ago, darren1810 said:

'After getting them out of League 2 ' is the telling line there.

The first season with him in League one they came 7th and just missed the play-offs, how is that regression. You are right the season after wasn't great and they were relegated on goal difference. 

To call Plymouth a limited club is way off the mark, they are way bigger than us for example with huge gates and massive away support. Plymouth are far from limited.

Rather than looking at him being found out in League one our immediate concern is RIGHT NOW , League one is pie in the sky as we sit now.

I was not referring to Plymouth as a limited club, I was referring to him as a manager successful at limited clubs. He took Plymouth backwards and got found out in league 1. 

[valeparklife]

If Adams stays at Morecambe, it's win-win for him. He either takes them up/get's in the playoffs and he's "done a great job" where his stock is high and he 'holds the chips'.

Coming to us is a huge job where he might keep us up or might plunge us into further trouble. 

It makes more sense to stay at Morecambe. But then I've seen a few L1 managers drop down to L2 so anything is possible!

[tommytunstall]

56 minutes ago, darren1810 said:

I'm actually at a loss to think who would fit for some.

We are not going to get a manager without some sort of failure or stagnation.

The man some are after doesn't exist .

Spot on. Crikey staggered by some of comments on here, Mcgreal not good enough Adams not good enough. Why don’t we just leave it Carol and co, we are not in that strong a position as a club

 

[TJHValiant]

1 hour ago, valiant_593 said:

I’m quite certain the results was the issue. I couldn’t give a <ovf censored> if we play pulis ball all season as long as we start looking like a half decent side again that wins some matches. 
Out of interest, who would you like as manager? As in my opinion derek adams is quite clearly the top candidate 

Ideally I’d like a manager with well rounded experience throughout all the divisions, like Micky Adams had. Someone who has knowledge of the league, yet can manage the expectations and bring in the ideas of experience from managing a club higher up the pyramid. 
 

That leaves the likes of Ian Holloway, who is perhaps the closest to Micky Adams in that regard.