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Some interesting responses on here to the latest development. I'd like to add some context. In the past TWENTY YEARS we have only achieved a top 7 finish in the league... ONCE. This was under MA

The meltdown on here is laughable.  Please can someone tell me the success we have had in appointing a manager since Micky left? None. Flitcroft being appointed DoF shows our long term visio

Check out wiki.  He's run the family business with his brother and father for 15 years and has his own football academy.  He's not been "just" a player and manager.  In view of the amount of crit

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If finances allow then for me the Cowley brothers.  Living in Lincolnshire I have heard a lot about these two from friends who met them and said they had a lot of time for the fans.  They took a run down playing squad and turned it around there.  A couple of promotions and a good cup run which allowed the owners to clear debts, refurbish their training ground with the latest stuff and more importantly a club with no debts.

They may well be out of Carols price range, but they are not in work at the moment.  Could be a good fit here may be.  Better than some of the suggestions I have seen.  We need an experienced manager not a just starting their career as a manager.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

Good spot, and shows the danger of statistics out of context... looks like he did a decent job there!

Wiki says this about Adam Murray:

"Murray is known as a manager with an eye for detail and getting the most from the resources available to him by working on 'marginal gains' to get the extra one percent advantage to improve his players and teams performances. At Mansfield Murray developed a passing game adopted from the Dutch total football model but tailored to football league players. Murray is known to be an advocate of sports science, sports analysis, strength and conditioning, and sports psychology within football in order to achieve maximum gains on the field. Murray has often spoken about the importance of building the right infrastructure for his teams including the importance of a strong academy system for young players to develop into the first team environment, his trust of developing young talent include such players as Peterborough United's 2016/17 player of the season Ryan Tafazolli[32] who cites Murray as the biggest influence on his career as a young player and 'developing him from a boy to a man'

Good write up but he looks too inexperienced for me and his win ratio is not terribly good: 31.07% at Mansfield and 28.57% at non-league Boston (after which he went to Barnsley as a coach).

Edited by CambridgeDon

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On the debate between experience and rookies, the Cowleys had little track record before taking Lincoln front non league to league one. And Ainsworth the same at Wycombe, Currently the longest serving manager in the leagues and in the championship. Every experienced manager started somewhere. Its a gamble which ever way we turn.

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Posted (edited)

I know that we all want a fish that is big for the pond in which we swim. I’m convinced that we might get one with the support that they will get from our owners, even if it’s not totally financial support. I have to agree with this as ours and others clubs financial streams for the future are so uncertain. 
I don’t think we can offer more than a contract until the end of the season, that’s if the season ever finishes. However there would have to be a caveat in the contract that if we do stay up then a two year deal will be on the table (that would hopefully be the sweetener). 
I feel a lot of the names mentioned would probably not apply, as what have they got to gain. Like most employment today it’s all about building your CV’s and increasing your profile, with some of the names mentioned it will be a lose lose scenario. I hope that I’m proven wrong. 

Edited by Playa Amodores
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Mick McCarthy has become available.

He was so gracious that time we beat Millwall at the New Den after they'd just signed those Russians.

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12 minutes ago, Santa said:

Mick McCarthy has become available.

He was so gracious that time we beat Millwall at the New Den after they'd just signed those Russians.

He would be brilliant. The wonders he did with Ipswich etc. However he likes money and will never step down to league 2. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jacko51 said:

Fake news.

Spot on Jean. 

I'm not the greatest with memory in fact I can't remember what I had for my tea last night but I'm pretty certain in my head that in the 70's Mansfield were in the equivalent of today's championship, possibly only briefly

Edited by darren1810
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Posted (edited)

Getting a bit tedious to read 'need experience ffs' after every linked manager,,

Yes, experience could work, but the idea that somehow 'experience' is better suited to the position we are in is, in my view, not grounded in fact.

If they're experienced but willing to come to us, they're coming off a big/series of failures. This isn't always bad, as Micky Adams can attest to, but I feel too many fans are stuck with the fact that Micky is our only properly successful manager of the last 20 years, and he was as experienced/old-school as it gets. Also, our last 4 managers have been 'inexperienced', but they were largely appointed and operated under a really bad chairman. We're much better now.

Don't get me wrong; if a good, experienced name is available, then go for it, but I hope we don't box ourselves in and get some finished dinosaur on the basis of 'experience or don't bother'. It's a bit of a cliche.

Matty Taylor, Chris Beech, Danny Cowley, Dave Artell, Michael Flynn, Richie Wellens, Ryan Lowe, Michael Duff, John Yems, John McGreal.

All names who, if they had been appointed at Vale right now with their CV before their last job, would be met with 'with needed experience ffs'.

Look further back; Eddie Howe and Chris Wilder (despite their recent troubles), are the most successful EFL managers of the last decade. One had no experience, one had a stint at Halifax. Lob Nathan Jones into that mix now, who despite his best efforts to finish Stoke off, has largely done excellently.

All of those names, most of which have won promotion/finished top 7/are top 7 at our level in the last few years, were appointed by clubs who fans were probably begging for 'experience ffs'.

A well-run club, a few good players, supportive owners, bright ideas, man-management, a creative recruitment structure; this is what will dictate the success of the next manager, and not 'experience', especially if that experience is recently a collection of failures (Holloway *cough*).

I hope, and imagine that, Carol makes this choice not based on what someone has achieved in 2014 at a club nothing like ours, but based on which manager is the most impressive and likely to succeed based on the needs our club/squad has.

Wouldn't mind Parkinson, like (I know Sunderland didn't go well but he's been pretty solid bar that, and Sunderland goes well for no one). I'm not saying 'definitely go for a rookie', I'm saying keep an open mind.

 

Edited by Joe B
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7 hours ago, ginge said:

The problem with football fans is they are fickle. An loss to a smaller club or a bad run of form and they call for the manager and say things like the dressing room has been lost with no evidence. Most football fans do it because they love their club but sometimes its rash. This was Askeys first bad patch and I think he would have turned it around. Either way there is never going to be any stability if we keep calling for a manager to go if they lose form. With every new manager comes an overhaul of players that can never settle down. How many clubs can say they are doing well that change their manager each year? With Page we were a few signings off a league 1 play off push and Smurf lost his head. This time I think the players Askey signed were not good enough to come in when our main 11 were not available which was his downfall. I do trust Carol and Colin with whoever they chose. 

Agree that John Askey would have turned it around without question. Prefer a manager who has the club in his heart and thought he would be around for years to come. Knee jerk reaction to Mansfield and should have been giving opportunity to deal in transfer window. Still gutted for him and Dave Kevan.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Agree that John Askey would have turned it around without question. Prefer a manager who has the club in his heart and thought he would be around for years to come. Knee jerk reaction to Mansfield and should have been giving opportunity to deal in transfer window. Still gutted for him and Dave Kevan.

 

Yes, as his previous opportunities in transfer windows were resounding successes; it's inevitable he's nail this one too.

I don't care if the manager has the club in his heart. Micky Adams didn't care about the Vale on any emotional level, but he had a job to do, and he won games of football and a promotion. I want a manager who gets us promoted. Askey wasn't going to do that, whatever love for us he has.

If 6 points from 36 and being dumped out the FA Cup by Kings Lynn, as well as being in the same position in the table as we were when he arrived, is classed as 'kneejerk', then I imagine it's difficult to ever justify sacking a manager unless you get relegated, and then it's a reactive move.

It's time to move on. We're all disappointed it hasn't worked out but we have a fantastic opportunity to get things going under our owners, here. Askey was a decent bloke and a decent manager, but is he that brilliant of a manager that other league clubs will be queuing up to appoint him? I imagine not.

Let's be positive and excited for the new direction Carol can take us in.

Edited by Joe B
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Spot on Jean. 
I'm not the greatest with memory in fact I can't remember what I had for my tea last night but I'm pretty certain in my head that in the 70's Mansfield were in the equivalent of today's championship, possibly only briefly
Highest position for 14 years it says and promotion from non league

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1 hour ago, connor hackett said:

On the debate between experience and rookies, the Cowleys had little track record before taking Lincoln front non league to league one. And Ainsworth the same at Wycombe, Currently the longest serving manager in the leagues and in the championship. Every experienced manager started somewhere. Its a gamble which ever way we turn.

That's true and John Rudge didn't have League management experience either. But the counter argument is that neither did Lee Sinnott or Neil Aspin. 

If you can pick up a gem of an unknown manager and develop that's great but I think it's a fairly remote chance and that the likes of the Cowleys and the Ainsworths are generally the exceptions rather than the rules. 

With the situation with Covid and the effect on club finances I personally think it's a gamble too far to go for an unknown and hope they are a great success. It would of course be fantastic if an unknown did turn out great but what if they don't?

It could also be that a proven name turns out to be awful (Jim Gannon for instance) because every appointment has an element of a gamble about it, but I would say that in general experience helps at this level and will at the very least stablise the club again.

It's always a risk... but I just think it's less of a risk taking on someone experienced and much more of a risk gambling on a complete unknown.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, ginge said:

The problem with football fans is they are fickle. An loss to a smaller club or a bad run of form and they call for the manager and say things like the dressing room has been lost with no evidence. Most football fans do it because they love their club but sometimes its rash. This was Askeys first bad patch and I think he would have turned it around. Either way there is never going to be any stability if we keep calling for a manager to go if they lose form. With every new manager comes an overhaul of players that can never settle down. How many clubs can say they are doing well that change their manager each year? With Page we were a few signings off a league 1 play off push and Smurf lost his head. This time I think the players Askey signed were not good enough to come in when our main 11 were not available which was his downfall. I do trust Carol and Colin with whoever they chose. 

My calls for Askey to leave were not predicated on a 'bad run of form', which paints fans who were keen for change as irrational, emotional, trigger-happy short-termists. It's not correct.

I looked at the squad and realised that, having signed 21 permanent players, only 4 Askey signings could be dressed up as successful. He was struggling to identity and bring in players, and was leaving us with some real dross which will eat into the new salary cap (Robinson and Whitehead are both here for 2 years, unless someone takes on their contract). Our best 11 is still 8/9 players Askey inherited, 2 years ago.

Looking further; the squad is the oldest in the league, with the spine of the side between 33-35 and all at a much lower level than last season (in the case of Legge, possibly a terminal decline). In this situation, Askey had two courses of action

1. Get us promoted this season, and use the additional funding to completely rebuild the first 11 to stay in League 1.

2. Don't go up, but engage in a squad overhaul with much improved recruitment and lower the squad's age whilst overseeing the departure of fundamental characters and players such as Pope, Brown, Legge, and Joyce. This would have to be done within the limitations of the new salary cap, meaning we'd need to sign cheap, undervalued players to maximise return (as players such as Worrall will be on good money). This is a tough ask for a manager with decent recruitment, let alone one with as many misses as Askey with fewer restrictions.

We were very unlikely to go up with Askey at the helm this year, and his recruitment has been so poor (a reminder he spent the club's money, mid-pandemic, on Whitehead and Mills) that I didn't trust him with the budget to set us up for a future promotion challenge once the stalwarts had moved on, especially with the new restrictions.

If you add in the flaws which he'd failed to iron out (rigid 433 tactics with no ability to adapt, a prolific ability to throw away leads after the 80th minute, a poor reaction time to in-game changes) over 2 years as manager, and the long-term just didn't look very bright, as he isn't improving on his issues (add recruitment to that).

As a consequence, for the sake of the next 2-3 years of the club, I thought it was best we move on from Askey, accept his window of opportunity had passed, and look to someone who could oversee the transition we're going to encounter. Brown, Legge, Joyce, Pope has been the mainstay of our side for 3 years, and it's coming to an end.

Whilst you have a different view, to portray everyone who wished to see a change as 'knee-jerk over some bad form' is just fundamentally incorrect. Askey didn't inspire me with any confidence that he could successfully oversee the transition the club is going to face over the next 1-2 years. People have been just as considered, rational, and long-term in their evaluation of the matter as you feel you have. They just came up with a different solution.

EDIT: Just so there's no accusation of me being revisionist/writing with hindsight now he's been sacked, I penned this article weeks ago, before there was any massive consensus for him to go: https://pvlollipop.sport.blog/long-reads/

Edited by Joe B
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Rampant Zebra said:

It is easy to say Askeys recruitment was poor but he could only sign players that were willing to come to the club, who knows what his original wish list looked like. 

Whilst we were outbid for Maynard, I struggle to apply this to all his signings.

Widen the net. Too many players were known to him, his agent, were local, or had played well against him in the Conference. Very few had no prior links to him. The only marginally left-field signings were Hurst and Rodney, and they look to be his best buys.

Whilst I accept you have to compromise on some targets, I flat out refuse to believe Whitehead was the best midfielder he could afford/convince to come to the club this summer to replace Taylor. It was a lazy signing; played under Askey so nothing to scout. Player wasn't playing so easy to convince.

Meanwhile, Forest Green flip a centre half for a rumoured 500k to Barnsley. Paul Mullin, Danny Johnson, and Max Watters lead the scoring charts, all free this year but undervalued by other clubs for whatever reason. I know people will say 'people would moan if we signed any of them', but why should Askey care? He should be focused on signing good players, not players the fans will rate.

If he's failing to convince THAT many targets to come to us that Whitehead/Mills were our only recourse, then he must be absolutely diabolical at selling his vision to players and agents.

Edited by Joe B

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