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How did the powers that be come to the conclusion that Donnarumma was player of the tournament ?

Bearing in mind they won the group with their eyes closed and from the last 16 onwards it's not like they were battered and he made a flurry of fantastic saves to get them to the final. 

Seems to me he's been given it based on a few easy penalty saves. 

I'd assume 99% of the time it's a player from the winning team so Chiesa would of got my vote. 

Very strange choice . 

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9 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Serious question, Who said last night's game was gonna be easy for England? I only heard comments like, Italy are the best team in the tournament, Italy have played some of the best football, England have home advantage which could be a plus or a negative etc. I heard Del Piero say on ESPN "He thought England had the stronger squad" to which Sammy kadeira retorted "But Italy have the better manager" to which Macca chimed in with, "I hope Southgate isn't too negative etc.

I can't remember seeing a post or hearing anyone say or intimate anything remotely close to "it would be easy for us".

Player of the tournament is always given to one playing for the winning team, and he would be up there. Personally, I think Chiesa has been their best player.

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10 hours ago, Beech said:

I feel England made the final despite of him

So, just out of curiosity, do you think this England team is significantly better than any team we've had in the last 25 years? We're very strong in attacking midfield and at full-back, but are we really that strong through the core of the team (GK, CB, CM, ST) compared to previous years?

If you accept that the current team (or that in 2018 for that matter) isn't notably stronger, then to what do you attribute the greater level of success? I certainly wouldn't say we had an especially easy draw, (Ukraine QF aside, which we strolled), and certainly progressed far more serenely (including with wins against Croatia, Czech Rep and Germany) than in say 1990, when we were very lucky to get past Belgium and especially Cameroon and only got out of the group with a 1-0 v Egypt.

If it really was in spite of Southgate, and not at least partially thanks to him, how crap was every single manager England have had since Ramsey to do even worse than Southgate?

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Yes, we have the best squad in my lifetime. Is Southgate better than a lot of the managers we have had before? I would say no, certainly not better than Hodgson. I would not go as far to say despite Southgate but I do not think his tactics have been marvellous like the press have been saying, his tactics have seen us to the final, had his tactics been more attacking we may well have got to the final as well so it cannot fully be said that we got to the final because of his tactics. What is for sure, his tactics did not work in the final and had we played like we did in extra time for the full match we may well have won the game.

Out of all the games we played there is not one team except Italy I expected us to lose to, we were favourites behind France going in to the tournament, more favourites than the Italians despite their great run going in to the tournament and the bookies are not usually far off so we must have had one of the best squads. Similar to the World Cup, when it comes down to the crunch against good opposition we <ovf censored> it up and I believe that is mostly down to the tactics employed by the manager. We did well to get to the final, is that down to the manager? Partly yes but we were expected to anyway.

 

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43 minutes ago, Rampant Zebra said:

We beat Germany with Southgate as a a manager, how many other managers have achieved that in a tournament, apart from Sir Alf obviously...

Kevin Keegan 

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58 minutes ago, Rampant Zebra said:

We beat Germany with Southgate as a a manager, how many other managers have achieved that in a tournament, apart from Sir Alf obviously...

Sven was manager when we won 5-1 in Germany during a qualifier. 

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1 hour ago, philpvfc said:

Yes, we have the best squad in my lifetime. Is Southgate better than a lot of the managers we have had before? I would say no, certainly not better than Hodgson. I would not go as far to say despite Southgate but I do not think his tactics have been marvellous like the press have been saying, his tactics have seen us to the final, had his tactics been more attacking we may well have got to the final as well so it cannot fully be said that we got to the final because of his tactics. What is for sure, his tactics did not work in the final and had we played like we did in extra time for the full match we may well have won the game.

Out of all the games we played there is not one team except Italy I expected us to lose to, we were favourites behind France going in to the tournament, more favourites than the Italians despite their great run going in to the tournament and the bookies are not usually far off so we must have had one of the best squads. Similar to the World Cup, when it comes down to the crunch against good opposition we <ovf censored> it up and I believe that is mostly down to the tactics employed by the manager. We did well to get to the final, is that down to the manager? Partly yes but we were expected to anyway.

 

Not better than Roy Kane-on-corners Hodgson?

The man that couldn't sort us out to beat Iceland?

I wouldn't fancy Southgate managing my club side but he has turned England around no end.

I put a post on here showing all the teams we'd beaten in knockout stages prior to this tournament going back to 1990.  It was a rather embarrassing list to say the least!

Could've even gone further because we only beat Paraguay in 86.

He's got us to a semi final and a final.

We conceded two goals, one a freaky set piece and the other was an inch away from being a corner after Pickfords save.

I'd take Southgate over Sven, the Brolly Wally, Capello and Hodgson.

The performances we put out in tournaments under them (or not, in Mclarens case as we didnt qualify), especially taking into account some of the players they had were, to be frank, a joke.

The fact that Paul Scholes, who according to his fellow pros is the best midfielder we've ever produced, retired at 29 because we played him left wing speaks volumes. 

Sven took Theo Walcott, who was yet to make an Arsenal appearance and was 17 at the time, to the 2006 world cup.  That was over Darren Bent (premier league top scorer in the year leading up to that) and Jermain Defoe.  Walcott didnt even get on the pitch.

 

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41 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

Sven was manager when we won 5-1 in Germany during a qualifier. 

Without doubt one of my favourite England games.

RZ has a point though, wasn't a knockout.

In knockouts, Sven beat Denmark and Ecuador.

Wow!!!

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1 hour ago, philpvfc said:

we have the best squad in my lifetime

Really? In those core areas of the pitch? Interesting that the win over Germany in Euro 2000 was mentioned above, the last time we beat them in an actual tournament, but we still couldn't even make it out of the group, despite being unable to even find room in the squad for David James, Rio Ferdinand or Andy Cole, all of whom would walk into this squad (at the respective points in their careers).

You honestly saying that you'd take Pickford over Seaman; Maguire, Stones, Mings and Coady over Adams, Campbell, Southgate and Keown (with Ferdinand missing the cut!); Phillips, Rice and Henderson over Ince, Gerrard and Scholes; Mount and Grealish/Foden over Beckham and Real-era McManaman; Kane, Rashford, Sterling and DCL over Shearer, Owen, Fowler, Heskey and Phillips? 

Like I said, there are positions (FB, AM) where we're really strong now and have better depth than ever, and this is a good squad overall, (stronger than 2014-2018 certainly) with potential for further development given their age. But the spine of the squad is no better than several others in recent memory, certainly those from the mid-90s through to about 2010.

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12 minutes ago, Clayts said:

Really? In those core areas of the pitch? Interesting that the win over Germany in Euro 2000 was mentioned above, the last time we beat them in an actual tournament, but we still couldn't even make it out of the group, despite being unable to even find room in the squad for David James, Rio Ferdinand or Andy Cole, all of whom would walk into this squad (at the respective points in their careers).

You honestly saying that you'd take Pickford over Seaman; Maguire, Stones, Mings and Coady over Adams, Campbell, Southgate and Keown (with Ferdinand missing the cut!); Phillips, Rice and Henderson over Ince, Gerrard and Scholes; Mount and Grealish/Foden over Beckham and Real-era McManaman; Kane, Rashford, Sterling and DCL over Shearer, Owen, Fowler, Heskey and Phillips? 

Like I said, there are positions (FB, AM) where we're really strong now and have better depth than ever, and this is a good squad overall, (stronger than 2014-2018 certainly) with potential for further development given their age. But the spine of the squad is no better than several others in recent memory, certainly those from the mid-90s through to about 2010.

I would have a mixture of the 2 teams but Seaman wasn’t up to scratch, Pickford better plus Kane up front. The thing is, we had great players then as we do now but we did not have nearly as much depth to the squad, 1 or 2 injuries and we were screwed then plus you don’t mention the full backs, Neville and Pearce aside we have not had many decent full backs through the years. This time we did not have a weakness in our team plus the added benefit of playing at Wembley for most the games. 

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16 minutes ago, eh up nah said:

True

Group game though and both teams went home after that stage.

I think most Germans would say that was their worst ever period.

I think most Germans would say the last 4 years have been their worst period. 

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2 hours ago, philpvfc said:

Is Southgate better than a lot of the managers we have had before? I would say no, certainly not better than Hodgson.

 

Hmm. Let’s look at our last 4 major tournaments:

2014 World Cup - Hodgson - knocked out at the group stage

2016 Euros - Hodgson - knocked out in R16 by the mighty Iceland

2018 World Cup - Southgate - knocked out in the semi final by Croatia after extra time

2020 Euros - Southgate - runners up after losing in the lottery of a penalty shootout against an Italian side that had also beaten Belgium (world no 1) and Spain (world no 6) en route to the final 

I know whose record I prefer.

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27 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

Far better record but not necessarily a better manager. 

Wow!

I'm thinking you simply don't like the fella.

He's got a better record, but he might not be a better manager?!

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47 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

Seaman wasn’t up to scratch

Really? By 2002 and that Ronaldinho goal maybe (although THAT save v Sheff Utd was the year after if I remember right), but he certainly had better temperament than Pickford, was great 1 v 1, excellent shot-stopper, good on pens, held the ball more often than Pickford, and had longevity (Pickford may be number one for another 50 caps and become a great, but we'll see).

You mention depth, but that is exactly what I was highlighting in that 2000 squad in key areas (CB, CM, ST) where we had better units collectively. Kane, Maguire and Stones make the 2000 squad comfortably of course, but the point stands that collectively the CB and FW units in 2021 are weaker. I didn't mention full-back because I already said the current squad is better in that area, no argument whatsoever, this was specifically looking at the spine of the team.

Also, you're saying now we didn't have a weakness, but before the tournament plenty of people on this very thread were saying we were weak at CB, (Stones prone to mistakes, Mings not international class etc.), worried about GK with Pickford off the back of an iffy season and cover from keepers from WB and SU, and lack of experience in CM (how many caps between Rice, Phillips and Bellingham before this tournament, 30 maybe, with Henderson injured?). 

Southgate took all that pre-tournament doubt about our quality, and by the end of the tournament turned us into a squad that apparently was the best in the tournament and should be disappointed not to have won it. Were all his decisions in the final perfect? No. Is he the best tactician in football management? No. But he's managed an England squad to a better result than any other person we've had in his position in the last 55 years, so surely some credit is due?

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