Why does the club keep losing money????

[PV1973]

It seems that on the field we are unlikely to be hitting 6000 plus without huge incentives on season ticket sales and some on the field improvement in terms of league position and performance. Football fans seem too fickle these days and also there are more distractions and things to fill your time with. People won't just attend because the club is in the blood. But to get that upturn in performance and position it will need investment too so its all a big circle that comes back to also having an owner with some money.

 

Off the field activities need a good look at as well, we've seen plenty of good ideas on this forum even from people in business. But again it needs the right people in place and the investement to market those opportunites at the ground.

 

The other issues everyone overlooks when pointing at Accrington etc is business overheads firstly we have a huge stadium that is as much use as a chocolate teapot. It takes money and time to maintain and staff it. Compare that Accrington and I bet you are talking hundreds of thousands difference in that just for a start. Secondly we have an academy which costs hundreds of thousands to run, again Accrington don’t have this to look after. Wage budget is another thing people overlook this year. We had nearly 35 pros on the books this year and the cost of that compared to other teams in phenomenal. You can point at Smurf for the 35 pros but not the stadium or academy.

Agree on the ground being too big, although I have no idea what that upkeep costs. I wouldn't say no to a smaller ground fit for purpose over what we have now, but thats another matter entirely.

 

When Bratt was still in charge there was an idea to close the academy because it was costing approx I believe around 300k a year to run and we had no players coming through either. Some of that figure would no doubt would have some contribution in grants from the FA and of course the figures involved may have changed since then. But we still have the same infrastructure in place so it can't be too much different. However the difference now is that we have had players who have come through the academy and actually made an impact on the first team in Smith, Gibbons, Turner, Boot and ironically we've seen the return of Davis and Raglan. In light of those players coming through does that make the academy a worthwile investment? Yes it does because all those players when they first break through are on relative peanuts, until they get established, but equally you have the value of them being potentially sold at some point. So if and when that happens then the academy has recouped a lot of money for the club as well as providing cheaper first team players too and players with an affinity for the club. But the reality is that fans don't care about players until they are in the first team, the other age groups and teams don't matter, nor does the fact that some of those players just recently breaking through have been with us for around ten years. But had the academy been closed when Bratt was in charge then we wouldn't have seen those players in a Vale shirt. Even the now defunct development squad has seen some money come to us through Hugill. But ultimately academies really are a long term investment, not short term.

 

However, what other clubs have done is scrap the academies up to a certain age, say u16. Then they try and pick up the players released by all the other clubs at that age and these lads then form the youth team. The development work has already been done for the club by the other academies and you save yourself a lot of money. I don't particulary like that idea but if you need to cut your cloth accordingly then thats one way to do it.

 

The amount of pros we have is ridiculous, whenever I look at the program on a matchday you can guarantee that we're around ten players more than the oppositions squad. Thats a lot of money when you add it up.

[darren1810]

I'd of thought the actual thread title is obvious ?

The majority of the clubs outside the Premiership lose money it is a fact of life. Not many football clubs are sustainable as a going concern, you have to throw money at it.

Maybe 36 home games in a calendar year which pays 52 weeks/ 12 months salary for everything concerned with the club.

You can argue the pros and cons till you are blue in the face. People will watch a winning team as Burton and Northampton crowds proved.

Even averaging 6000 a game i'd be amazed if we turned a profit.

[melv]

The customers are paying to watch a football match at the same price as all clubs in our league. They aren’t paying for his mistakes

 

 

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Not paying for his mistakes

 

So where is the money that fans put in going then?

[Howjy04]

Make money for the business, so that it doesn't rely soley on the mood of one man on any given day. That's not a sustainable model, and should cause us all an element of concern.

 

You call it lambasting, Smurf called it abuse, the truth is it's been constructive, justified criticism. A lot of people have offered to help, a lot have made sensible money raising suggestions, but the way they have been treated by Smurf has been disgusting. Many a time Smurf has made official statements and used terms such as "so called fans" "real fans" etc. As you know, it's offensive, and certainly wouldn't encourage people to part with their money.

 

I wouldn't advocate SEO or encourage people not to purchase a ST, that's up to the individual. I want the club to be run better. I don't want Smurf to "royally f**k up" in the ridiculous ways he has. We have no choice but to hope Smurf either; runs the club better, or, sells to people that will. Whoever runs the club, Smurf, Synectics, Manorshop, or Howjy04....if they make stupid decisions that affect the club in the way Smurf has, they're going to get criticised. Rightly so. If they make good decisions then equally they'll be praised (that includes Smurf) who I've praised numerous, but not a huge number of, times.

 

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Who doesn’t want us to do well,be sustainable and occasionally buy a player or two?Give me an answer and an example please how you would achieve it.Coates,City Sheik,Abramovich are now reigning the spending in.It’s not that they haven’t got it,they are sick of spending it to a certain degree.Why should a owner of PV be any different?

[onestepatatime]

Post 74 from sourceofthetrent is a very well thought out, descriptive scenario and says most of what we all probably think.

 

I say simply that when he initially (with Wilde) came to "save" Port Vale his belief was surely in making money out of our Club whilst perhaps seeing us succeed on the pitch. He would have had(contrary to what he said- a 5 year plan for promotion to the Championship)a short term strategy of making a buck or two as he then felt we were ripe for his "business acumen" to improve.

 

There was no long term plan or well thought out business blueprint at all- he meant to make some money before moving on, or at least he thought he could move on easily by selling an improving Club to some other mug.

 

What has happened, as we all know , is that Smurf has realised and accepted that Football is totally alien to the world he came from and whatever business nous he had was in no way relevant to Port Vale or for that matter any Football Club.

 

Smurf has landed himself in a pickle, not honestly knowing what to do or when to do it. Valiants are stuck with him until he ever discloses his vision for the future, for himself or Port Vale. There is nothing, we as fans can do about it other than to swallow our frustration and back the Club in a hope that one day he will make a decision about Port Vale that can move us on and indeed move himself on.

 

He must, by now understand that he will NOT make any money out of Port Vale the way he operates. Can a leopard change it's spots?

[Family Stand Terrier]

Who doesn’t want us to do well,be sustainable and occasionally buy a player or two?Give me an answer and an example please how you would achieve it.Coates,City Sheik,Abramovich are now reigning the spending in.It’s not that they haven’t got it,they are sick of spending it to a certain degree.Why should a owner of PV be any different?

Go back to my list of issues I have with Smurf, a few posts ago. I'd start by not making those disastrous mistakes, over and over again. The wage budget he's put in place repeatedly leads to high quantity, low quality squads. I'd change that for kick off. Simplistic view maybe, but the product would improve and in turn, so would attendances. I'd not fall out with and insult potential and existing customers. I'd understand the importance of building a buzz (smurf calls it spin) rather than relying on blind loyalty of fans. I'd look at the whole fan experience and listen to fans to look to improve it. I'd definitely try to get the hamil end for home fans, try to get an atmosphere back into the stadium with an "end". I'd not create uncertainty year after year in pre season (season ticket sales time) by ripping established squads up, letting contract situations drag on and on, etc. I'd make sure we had a solid strategy, an identity, and stuck to it rather than reinventing ourselves every year reacting to crisis after crisis.

 

I'm sure there's more I can think of, but that's enough for now.

 

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[Wereskintandweknowweare]

The only sense in that post Matt. Failure to understand that it's their role to attract fans (customers) is a huge part of the problem.

 

 

 

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We need to firstly look at current efficiencies do we need six staff in the ticket office, do they work hard enough ? Do we use an appropriate amount of energy.

Walsall are an example of fully using the ground outside of football. Although many state markets are in the past ( drive to bescot this Sunday and see for yourself.

Our catering is not great if we can not manage it in house out source it to bring in a rental revenue.

What are we doing with our pub ? Do we invest and make it a seven day operation? Do we rent it out?

Although the club will say we do ok for corporate events in truth do we? Events, bands, comedians when was the last time a night out was advertised at the Vale.

What do we do with the ground in the summer months ? Usually nothing.

It is probably not one huge thing to do with our ground that will make a difference but a series of small things.

Could we put a German market on from November.

Could we have done something at bonfire night, Halloween and other times of year.

Kids workshops on Sundays.

 

What is the clubs stance on corporate social responsibility some great initiatives to get us out there Race for life, Give up clothes for good, Comic Relief, Children in need.

I could go on all day and some you will say are not viable. I agree but if we throw a thousand ideas at it twenty may bring us some cash.

 

Of course the football has been mainly woefull in the biggest part for years but we will have that sorted now with Aspin and Rudge.

 

We need a tenacious Chief Exec well versed in marketing and an ability to think outside of the box.

[Fozza19]

I'm sure I once heard that every time we don't get 5500 through the turnstiles we lose money - the downside to having a large stadium?

 

Not the only reason I'm sure but that's what I heard before.

[llcoolj]

Bring back a good season ticket scheme(similar to the the pledge 5000) get people in the ground and sell good quality catering and merch

[Mario]

Matt, why does the football club have to pay so much for the upkeep of the stadium when it doesn’t own it?

 

I suppose the football club will have been signed up to a full repair and maintenance lease by the landlord.Win win situation for Smurthwaite.

[cheshirevaliant]

The long and short answer to the title question is "because we are not very well run". There can be no other reason. We are clearly not budgeting correctly for our attendances, which are not a surprise. We are clearly not maximising our potential income and we are clearly paying out a lot of money on the follies of the past, hence why we have had to pay up however many players contracts over the past 6 months or so.

 

As an aside, it grates me when people still refer to him as "Smurf" like he's some sort of loveable cartoon character.

[bomber]

Where we are now eh! Beaten home and away by Accrington Stanley , looseing a player to Forest Green . Loaning players off Burton and Shrewsbury how the mighty have fallen. Can we get any lower? Surf is a clown keeps makeing the same mistakes expecting a different outcome. If he does not allow Aspo and JR some freedom on the playing side , then I do fear for the future.

[Mattholl]

That's where you are wrong Mattholl. They were not managers or managers of any significance when they were appointed. On the cheap again IMO, by guess who.

 

There are clubs that have had recognised names and employed them over the same time by Northampton, Coventry, Swindon, Carlisle, Chesterfield, Bury, Gillingham And Oldham. Those clubs haven’t done a great deal other than survive. Brown and Page could easily have been with these mentioned sides and whilst I’m not a fan of either they name and experience wise were no worse than a host of the above in stature of manager.

 

Vale fans feel they are so hard done to, but the bottom line is we are no different to most league 1 and 2 clubs. We have peaks and troughs in position and squad, sometimes a club drops on sometimes they don’t. I would suggest Swindon have probably spent a lot more than us and still managed to get relegated, Chesterfield the same inc a new stadium, Bury have spent millions and nearly gone bust, same with Oldham investing and going no where.

 

Expectation is laughable at the Vale under normal circumstances and is now going platinum with this Hugill money. At best realistically looking at how we came down last we were looking for a top half finish but we won one game fans were talking automatic promotion, same when we had a decent dec people were talking about us going up after winning 3 games. Face it whilst it’s not pretty we are one of 7/8 larger teams in this league, we have no god given right to be going up (we really aren’t massive in this league) and throwing money at something doesn’t guarantee success. Giving Aspin and Rudge a decent budget next year and planning now is far more likely to get results. Notts county have been throwing money at old journeymen for 6-7 years and gone no where. We need to build a team not buy 3-4 big names which could easily go wrong and be an expensive mistake.

 

 

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[Erniemossrules]

Vale make it so difficult for casual supporters to turn up and buy a ticket.They expect fans to queue up in the freezing cold to buy tickets.

So most people can't be bothered to come and that is lost revenue.

[Erniemossrules]

Question why do we need so many stewards each week and guess who pays for it? How many stewards were at Accrington.