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Players in and Out

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2 hours ago, toyahw said:

And Harness, who's gone to L1 Portsmouth for a fee on a three year deal. Although I didn't think he was as bad for us as many others did. Quite liked him.

Harness was a very talented player, very good with the ball at his feet and a decent passer. 

The problem is, we have had so many years of awful squads with conference level nobodies, most of our fans forget what a decent footballer looks like. 

The tragedy of our fans weeping for us losing the likes of Gavin Gunning, Rawlinson, Hannant, etc is crazy when players with decent technical ability like Whitfield and Miller get jeered. 

Admittedly the latter were very ineffective but I think it demonstrates a lot about league 2 that our most effective players, are often hoofers than those with any real nous or passing ability. 

 

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Gunning made 58 league starts for FGR after he left us, we could have used a reliable player like that. Whitfield has technical ability but he doesn't deliver on the pitch. 

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Supporters tend to like players who lack ability but run their dates off as opposed to players with ability who would  generally be labelled “fancy dans”  Ideally, you want a player who has both qualities, but at our level and our funding they are sadly lacking.

In my view, “tryers” will get you nowhere even though they may be popular. Have a player who has some ability and you have a chance.

Over the last few years we have had teams full of “tryers” - and look where that had got us. Unfortunately, at the end of the day you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Players can be well commended for their physical endeavours, but if we are to progress then more than just effort is required.

 

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On 17/08/2019 at 10:18, Rampant Zebra said:

Why don't we leave the character assassination until he actually signs for us? 

18/08/19

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The strangest one is Jules who was signed by Macc then moved to Walsall.
I,m surprised Askey didn’t sign him with his Macc connections.
As ive said before, you continually moan whinge criticise ridicule and complain about signing ex Macc players, but keep banging on that we should sign Durrell.

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36 minutes ago, aspin for england said:
3 hours ago, Erniemossrules said:
The strangest one is Jules who was signed by Macc then moved to Walsall.
I,m surprised Askey didn’t sign him with his Macc connections.

As ive said before, you continually moan whinge criticise ridicule and complain about signing ex Macc players, but keep banging on that we should sign Durrell.

Durrell is probably the only Macc player worth signing and wouldn’t have cost a Kings ransom.

He would also be a first team prospect instead of some of the bench warmers signed.

 

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18 hours ago, TJHValiant said:

Harness was a very talented player, very good with the ball at his feet and a decent passer. 

The problem is, we have had so many years of awful squads with conference level nobodies, most of our fans forget what a decent footballer looks like. 

The tragedy of our fans weeping for us losing the likes of Gavin Gunning, Rawlinson, Hannant, etc is crazy when players with decent technical ability like Whitfield and Miller get jeered. 

Admittedly the latter were very ineffective but I think it demonstrates a lot about league 2 that our most effective players, are often hoofers than those with any real nous or passing ability. 

 

To clarify your point , the punters should be happier with technical players who are ineffective, rather than less gifted players who are more effective?

 

From my perspective none of the five names you list are worth crying over

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A common criticism levelled at the Cale this season is that, of the new signings, only David Amoo is a regular starter.

A few have said this indicated that “recruitment isn’t good enough” and “It’s the same team as last year”

This article in the sentinel has Dave Kevabs exploration.

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/one-reason-havent-seen-more-3227155

In summary, last years players have had longer to adapt to Askeys preferred style and how he wants the team to play.

Amoo was the only one that they thought could add to the team immediately. The rest are still being coached and developed and we will see more of them as that develops.

Seems like a sensible, steady rebuild approach to the team... which most people sign up to in theory.

Of course there will be a few that won’t be happy because it doesn’t match with their message over the last few weeks. But hey hum... 

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I’d also look at that a little more cynically and say that of those he’s brought in, the majority arguably aren’t as good as the players ahead of them in their positions in the current starting 11. 

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56 minutes ago, PV1973 said:

I’d also look at that a little more cynically and say that of those he’s brought in, the majority arguably aren’t as good as the players ahead of them in their positions in the current starting 11. 

Spot on. Cynical or not that is spot on. 

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1 hour ago, PV1973 said:

,I’d also look at that a little more cynically and say that of those he’s brought in, the majority arguably aren’t as good as the players ahead of them in their positions in the current starting 11. 

Some are gambles, who may not develop or fit into the team ethos, the other aspect is are they younger than the players ahead of them in the pecking order? A couple may have played their way into starting positions by Xmas ready for a Cup game or two and surprise us.  Like it or not the budget is not there yet, whether we can pull in a couple more players, also a couple of loan players, who may also have to wait their turn who knows.

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18 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Some are gambles, who may not develop or fit into the team ethos, the other aspect is are they younger than the players ahead of them in the pecking order? A couple may have played their way into starting positions by Xmas ready for a Cup game or two and surprise us.  Like it or not the budget is not there yet, whether we can pull in a couple more players, also a couple of loan players, who may also have to wait their turn who knows.

I agree.

Based on our current squad at the moment can anyone see Smith, Legge or Gibbons being replaced by Evans or Kennedy or see Ryan Lloyd coming in to that midfield 3 for any one of Conlon, Joyce or Manny? The only positions where I can see players coming in and doing something are out wide with Monty competing with Worrall and Amoo and possibly up top, with Bennet and Cullen. What position does Burgess even play? 

When we get suspensions and injuries that’s when the squad players need to take their chance. Hopefully they’re up to it.

Edited by PV1973
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Come on folks only time will tell if we have had a good or bad start to the season. We may look back in a few weeks time and realise that the three drawn games were decent results. After all everyone says Colchester will be serious challengers and Northampton have invested heavily while the 'plastic club' are paying players ridiculous amounts of money and we more than matched them.

  In regards to last years players still taking the starting 11 places then 'smell the coffee' since the tyrant has gone there is a spring in the players step now whereas last season the atmosphere within the club was toxic. Remember also the restraints on the budget which have been caused by the Tyrant's selling demands. Thankfully Carol and Kevin still bought us even those the git in truth robbed them because Port Vale were only heading in one direction with him constantly having his grubby fingers in every till within Vale Park. Non league or worse was the only destination. So for now we may be strapped for cash but thanks to the Shanahans we are FREE.

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1 hour ago, PV1973 said:

I agree.

Based on our current squad at the moment can anyone see Smith, Legge or Gibbons being replaced by Evans or Kennedy or see Ryan Lloyd coming in to that midfield 3 for any one of Conlon, Joyce or Manny? The only positions where I can see players coming in and doing something are out wide with Monty competing with Worrall and Amoo and possibly up top, with Bennet and Cullen. What position does Burgess even play? 

When we get suspensions and injuries that’s when the squad players need to take their chance. Hopefully they’re up to it.

I don't ever remember a Vale squad with more than 14 maybe 15 players in genuine competition for places. The reality is most clubs have a drop off from their first choice to the next few players, partly explains why there are so many "shock" results. Our squad isn't big, just looked on soccerbase:

Exeter 31

Swindon 28

Northampton 28

In reality we're on 21, so with two injured players we've only got one player not in the team or the bench.

The real question is which one of the higher profile players you'd want us to let go if you want someone different in. The players I'd imagine taking up the bulk of the wages will be: Brown, Legge, Smith (probably on an ok deal now), Manny, Joyce, Conlon (probably not on much last year but improved deal this), Worral, Pope, Cullen, Bennett, Amoo and Montano. Most of the rest will be on 600 or less (average wage at clubs like Macc Town and Morecombe). 

https://www.footy.com/footballers-vs-the-fans/#you-vs-your-club

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I think it's weird, that people are on here crying out for players not playing under several managers, are the solution to all our problems.

I liked Miller as a player type, and he was a nice bloke when you met him and talked to him. But I can still see he didn't exactly burn wholes in the nets all over the League, and obviously had/has problems outside the pitch. Otherwise, he would had been snapped up by another club in the summer, instead of laying bricks now...

The same with Whitfield. Never really fancied him, but he also only got the odd game here and there. He has an fine technical level, but has absolutely zero product of his work. He came on at Bury in the last game last season, and it was like playing with 10 men. He got pushed off the ball like he was a kid and looked no where near ready for League football. But some people like him, all though I'm not sure if it's for his footballing skills and what he added to the team, or because he was nice to their kid or their teen daughter fancied him and both parties liked to have their picture taken with him. I've seldom seen a player, having so many selfies taken with young girls, as him.

Same with Hannant. I liked him as well, especially in the beginning, because he brought something to the team we didn't have at the time. Mainly running his socks off and looked like he actually cared.

But the fact that he had the most crosses in the League, and only a very few assists or assist to the assist, shows that there clearly was something missing. Therefor, I didn't mind that the manager let him go.

Another thing is, people moaning that we are only bringing in players, Askey knows from Macc. I wouldn't be surprised, if it's the same people, that moaned that the Fat One signed all our players, over the managers head, and signing "no names" the managers had never seen before. 

Maybe the new boys are not "big names" or the big profiles we'd all like to see in a Vale shirt. But now, the manager actually knows and trusts his players, and only signs players, they think fit into the clubs charter. And now that is a problem too?

As long as we deliver and make progress on the pitch as well, he could be playing with 11 of his sons and nephews, and I still wouldn't give a flying f...! I just want Vale to do well and make progress on and off the pitch. We have our club back now, so why waste it on making signings we can't afford? They will come in due time, maybe not next season, but the season after. All it takes, is for us all to spend at the club, and the Shanahans to get as much sponsorships and other income, into the club as possible.  

 

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6 minutes ago, JRC said:

I don't ever remember a Vale squad with more than 14 maybe 15 players in genuine competition for places. The reality is most clubs have a drop off from their first choice to the next few players, partly explains why there are so many "shock" results. Our squad isn't big, just looked on soccerbase:

Exeter 31

Swindon 28

Northampton 28

In reality we're on 21, so with two injured players we've only got one player not in the team or the bench.

The real question is which one of the higher profile players you'd want us to let go if you want someone different in. The players I'd imagine taking up the bulk of the wages will be: Brown, Legge, Smith (probably on an ok deal now), Manny, Joyce, Conlon (probably not on much last year but improved deal this), Worral, Pope, Cullen, Bennett, Amoo and Montano. Most of the rest will be on 600 or less (average wage at clubs like Macc Town and Morecombe). 

https://www.footy.com/footballers-vs-the-fans/#you-vs-your-club

Add Whitfield to the well paid list ... forgot all about him.

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11 minutes ago, JRC said:

I don't ever remember a Vale squad with more than 14 maybe 15 players in genuine competition for places. The reality is most clubs have a drop off from their first choice to the next few players, partly explains why there are so many "shock" results. Our squad isn't big, just looked on soccerbase:

Exeter 31

Swindon 28

Northampton 28

In reality we're on 21, so with two injured players we've only got one player not in the team or the bench.

The real question is which one of the higher profile players you'd want us to let go if you want someone different in. The players I'd imagine taking up the bulk of the wages will be: Brown, Legge, Smith (probably on an ok deal now), Manny, Joyce, Conlon (probably not on much last year but improved deal this), Worral, Pope, Cullen, Bennett, Amoo and Montano. Most of the rest will be on 600 or less (average wage at clubs like Macc Town and Morecombe). 

https://www.footy.com/footballers-vs-the-fans/#you-vs-your-club

Agree! We are never going to have a squad like Man City, where the players on the bench are a top PL team as well. But we have to turn the balance around. 

You can have a squad, where you put maybe 1 or 2 subs on, that are slightly worse than those they replace. The other better players, can carry that and the team not suffer.

Our problem has been, for the last long long time, that we've had a team where 3 or 4 good players, had to carry the 7 or 8 others. And that doesn't work! 

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2 minutes ago, Danish Valiant said:

Agree! We are never going to have a squad like Man City, where the players on the bench are a top PL team as well. But we have to turn the balance around. 

You can have a squad, where you put maybe 1 or 2 subs on, that are slightly worse than those they replace. The other better players, can carry that and the team not suffer.

Our problem has been, for the last long long time, that we've had a team where 3 or 4 good players, had to carry the 7 or 8 others. And that doesn't work! 

But that still brings you back to our squad is pretty much at a minimum size .... so you either like for like one of the better players or get rid of one of the better players and one of the cheaper ones and bring in 2 mid price players.

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Rudgie never had massive squads - we had a very definite first eleven and then a handful of backup players who were adequate cover at most. But the first eleven were usually of such quality that no one was shouting for others to be bought in. Quality over quantity. Unless we get an injury or unless we can sign someone of such quality that they'd go almost immediately into the first team, there's no point wasting more money on numbers. 

Edited by gavcradd

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5 minutes ago, JRC said:

But that still brings you back to our squad is pretty much at a minimum size .... so you either like for like one of the better players or get rid of one of the better players and one of the cheaper ones and bring in 2 mid price players.

Agree once again! But that, right now, is down to our finances. 

To go of your list, I'd DEFFO let Montano go, when his contract runs out (next summer?). As you say, he's on a fair chunk and we can get better for the same amount! I my opinion, he's slightly better than Whitfield and add injury prone. He's obviously well liked at the club, given the cringeworthy way they all felt they had to come out and defend him, when he got injured in pre-season. But the fact is; we all miss Manny when he's injured. Montano, not so much...  

Edited by Danish Valiant

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