Brexit again...

[Fosse69]

The clown has put the spotlight on the function of royalty in our democracy,  Parliament is sovereign,  especially not a hung government putting pressure on a 92 year old.

[Jacko51]

A prorogation of five weeks does not traditionally happen every year - the last time it happened was 1945 during the war.

Johnson doesn't seem to understand the difference between the Legislature (Parliament) and the Executive (Government).  The role of the former is to instruct the latter how to proceed.  It is not the role of the Executive to do what they fancy and bugger Parliament. 

 

[TheSage]

Paul, the number who voted to remain was I think the third highest number of votes ever cast - but as we've said above there was little in it. 

Today has been a constitutional outrage. How a PM can shut down Parliament so it can't question and hold him to account is appalling.

But what I've said all along is that this wrecking ball will keep rolling downhill, gathering pace and strength in the next few years, and it's hard to see the divide being healed.

I suspect our future is in the EU and folk will come to regret voting the way they did. The vast majority of young people are strong remainers whereas the leavers are principally old timers, like me, who will fall off their perch. I don't think the long term option of going it alone is viable in our global, interdependent world, nor is it something that young people want. But it's hard to debate sensibly when cold facts are ignored and propaganda and lies painted as the truth.

One example. 5-6 people in the Cabinet, Johnson included, told us in the past couple of weeks that closing down Parliament was not going to happen and under no circumstances would an unconstitutional act like that be tolerated. I look forward to 5-6 resignations tomorrow.

It must be 50:50 if mop-head can keep his seat at the next election. There's a good chance he will lose it. That would be nemesis and cause for celebration.

 

 

[For Us All]

5 minutes ago, Paul6754 said:

Johnson is riding rough shod over democracy to fulfill his own agenda, where is your endearment, commitment and adherence to your principles of democracy now, I guess they went right out the window as soon as they didn't fit your agenda.

That's because the population and hence the number of people eligible to vote is now higher than at any time in the UK's history, I would guess that the number of people who voted Remain in 2016 was the largest number to vote "against" an electoral option for the same reason.

The percentage of people of all those eligible to vote for an electoral option is a much better yard stick and truer reflection of a political mandate as it removes the fluctuation and general upward trend of people eligible to vote. 

But if one of your major reasons, if not your major reason, for backing Brexit is based on democracy and not whether Brexit is right or wrong for the UK then you should uphold the principle of democracy come what may but that doesn't appear to be the case. 

So when parliament gets suspended all the Remainers are claiming it is a constitutional outrage.They think it goes against democracy because they can no longer vote against the  democratic process.

You couldn't make it up.

Bojo has completely outmanouvered them and they can't take it.

God Save The Queen.

[Fosse69]

11 minutes ago, For Us All said:

So when parliament gets suspended all the Remainers are claiming it is a constitutional outrage.They think it goes against democracy because they can no longer vote against the  democratic process.

You couldn't make it up.

Bojo has completely outmanouvered them and they can't take it.

God Save The Queen.

Parliament is sovereign, it is the democratic process, but has difficulty dealing with a ill-defined referendum, especially  when hampered with a hung parliament.

Even the current chancellor thinks it an affront to democracy, will he keep his job?

[Jacko51]

50 minutes ago, For Us All said:

 

You couldn't make it up.

You have used this expression dozens of times in this thread.  Yet you continue to make it up.  So you are clearly wrong.

[toyahw]

Project fear, the  world will end with an out vote. Project out, a land of milk and honey. Guess what? Both bull excrement passing (the swear filter here is ridiculous). 

At least we know what Boris is up to. Does anyone know where Corbijn stands? Apart from um er maybe?

[geosname]

I find it amusing that politicians are screaming that Boris isn't giving them enough time to debate/stop brexit...... they have had three and a half years..... 42 months...... 178 weeks..... 1,246 days..... to do something..... and failed..... not a lot of urgency for such a catastrophic event.

The only 2 options they seem to have offered are....

Giving it back to the people.... because it's political suicide if they go against the majority of the people who voted.

Vote of no confidence and installing jezza as PM...... libs didn't want it, tory rebels were having none of it, and a number of Labour MPs were against it.

As fosse has indicated they only way we could have negotiated with the EU was to vote for article 50...... so why vote for it? Wouldn't that have killed brexit there and then? If that's what the politicians wanted..... for the good of the country.

Brexit has become a smoke screen for a power grab..... trouble is there is so much smoke created by politics the politicians can't find their way out.

You may say that..... I couldn't possibly comment...

[geosname]

2 hours ago, toyahw said:

Project fear, the  world will end with an out vote. Project out, a land of milk and honey. Guess what? Both bull excrement passing (the swear filter here is ridiculous). 

At least we know what Boris is up to. Does anyone know where Corbijn stands? Apart from um er maybe?

He stands for a labour brexit but doesn't want to publicise it.

[Regal Beagle]

8 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Like I said, how can it possibly be argued that this is democratic.  You haven't managed to do that but you have shown yourself to pick and chose when democracy is ok and when it's not.

People voted to leave.

We have spent 3 years trying to leave but it turns out it was not as easy to leave as we were supposed to have believed.

It's generally accepted that leaving without a deal is damaging to the country.

600+ MPs are charged with acting in the best interests of the country after evaluating the actual evidence.

The country was split almost 50/50.  In many of the votes Parliment is split almost 50/50 which is representative of the electorate.  There is no clear consensus amongst elected representatives of how to proceed and any free democratic parliment needs a clear consensus to pass anything through, that's how democracy works.

Now, I am not saying that we shouldn't come out.  The vote was won by leave, I am saying that until we get a clear consensus amongst elected representatives on how we should proceed then it needs to be postponed until the solution is found.  All of us can see how MPs vote and no doubt we will be voting in a general election soon enough where there will be a plethora of options to chose from in regards to parties and candidates.   We all get the chance to put people in the house to represent our views and should our views be the popular view on a constituency basis then Parliment will ebb closer to a solution.

However, there is a problem.  52% is not an overwhelming majority and that was 3 years ago, since when the landscape is changed.

Expecting to get a consensus on an issue as important as Brexit with just a 4 point margin is fairyland thinking.  It wont happen.  I have previously said, hard Brexiteers want out at any cost.  Hard Remainers want in at any cost, the vast majority lie in the middle ground and so a solution must be found to suit the majority - which is the essence of democracy.

Of course, you are portraying yourself as a hardline Brexiteer, so no amount of common sense or logic will sway you from wanting out at any cost, even to the point where you will try to argue that suspending parliment is somehow democratic because 52% of the turnout voted leave 3 years ago.

As such there is little point engaging you further.

I occupy the middle ground.  We have to leave but only when we find a solution that does not cause irreparable damage to our own economy.  Bang on about the will of the people all you like but the will of the people isn't going to pay the bills. 

Like I've demonstrated, it's been part of our democracy for hundreds of years and is traditionally used every year. In this instance, Parliament was due to be suspended for 3 weeks anyway for the conference season and so you will have to tell me how tacking 4 days on the end of that is some how anti-democratic?

In terms of my principles - I have them and I believe very strongly in them. It's why I stand up against liars. I've also not actually supported this move from Boris or disavowed it. You are assuming I am in support.

As I've said, anyone who can dismiss the will of the people so easily does not have a legitimate point to make on whether a 4 day parliamentary break is democratic or not.

This is a another in a series of horrendous remainer lies.

8 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Johnson is riding rough shod over democracy to fulfill his own agenda, where is your endearment, commitment and adherence to your principles of democracy now, I guess they went right out the window as soon as they didn't fit your agenda.

That's because the population and hence the number of people eligible to vote is now higher than at any time in the UK's history, I would guess that the number of people who voted Remain in 2016 was the largest number to vote "against" an electoral option for the same reason.

The percentage of people of all those eligible to vote for an electoral option is a much better yard stick and truer reflection of a political mandate as it removes the fluctuation and general upward trend of people eligible to vote. 

But if one of your major reasons, if not your major reason, for backing Brexit is based on democracy and not whether Brexit is right or wrong for the UK then you should uphold the principle of democracy come what may but that doesn't appear to be the case. 

My principles are strongly in place Paul, unlike most in this thread.

I do uphold the principle of democracy and that is why we must leave the EU. It's that simple. Whether or not Boris is going to have a long weekend in the alps has no bearing on brexit at all.

I actually believe he has done it to try and get a deal without the backstop through parliament so I'm not particularly excited about it. I'm indifferent really.

 

Where was the outrage when Bercow cited a convention which is 400 years old in support of pro-remain items?

Where was the outrage when Bercow actually broke house conventions in support of pro-remain items?

 

There wasn't any. Because it suited you lot. Principles.

[Regal Beagle]

8 hours ago, For Us All said:

So when parliament gets suspended all the Remainers are claiming it is a constitutional outrage.They think it goes against democracy because they can no longer vote against the  democratic process.

You couldn't make it up.

Bojo has completely outmanouvered them and they can't take it.

God Save The Queen.

Completely happy for parliament to agree to let the people decide on brexit and then in full support of Parliament wrestling power away from the Government, Scuppering negotiations. Siding with the EU against the UK. Ignoring the the majority of the country who have voted to leave on the promise that we would leave.

But Boris Johnson taking a long weekend (a traditional and almost annual occurance in Parliament) is an affront to democracy and a constitutional outrage.

They haven't been bothered about democracy or the constitutional fall out of brexit for 3 years. Why are they bothered now, all of a sudden?

The remain side are desperate liars propped up by the media. That is why.

[For Us All]

2 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Like I've demonstrated, it's been part of our democracy for hundreds of years and is traditionally used every year. In this instance, Parliament was due to be suspended for 3 weeks anyway for the conference season and so you will have to tell me how tacking 4 days on the end of that is some how anti-democratic?

In terms of my principles - I have them and I believe very strongly in them. It's why I stand up against liars. I've also not actually supported this move from Boris or disavowed it. You are assuming I am in support.

As I've said, anyone who can dismiss the will of the people so easily does not have a legitimate point to make on whether a 4 day parliamentary break is democratic or not.

This is a another in a series of horrendous remainer lies.

My principles are strongly in place Paul, unlike most in this thread.

I do uphold the principle of democracy and that is why we must leave the EU. It's that simple. Whether or not Boris is going to have a long weekend in the alps has no bearing on brexit at all.

I actually believe he has done it to try and get a deal without the backstop through parliament so I'm not particularly excited about it. I'm indifferent really.

 

WMExactlyhere was the outrage when Bercow cited a convention which is 400 years old in support of pro-remain items?

Where was the outrage when Bercow actually broke house conventions in support of pro-remain items?

 

There wasn't any. Because it suited you lot. Principles.

Exactly,when it suits.

Where was the outrage when Caroline Lucas tried to assemble a sexist,anti-democratic all-women cabinet to stop Brexit.

No outrage then,especially from the media who were a disgrace yesterday, they were clearly rattled and unable to hide their anti-Boris,anti-Brexit bias.

Nothing illegal with this plan from BJ,so Gina Miller will be wasting her time and somebody else's money challenging this.

 

 

[Howjy04]

Her Majesty has agreed to see Corbyn.She is allowing Prince Philip to drive his Land Rover for one last time,to pick him up.

[Howjy04]

19 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

World recession on its way, fewer cars are being sold, Germany does not have our debts so not a problem.

Nothing to do with Brexit?Seems like one or two people are getting confused with World recessiion and the UK leaving the EU.

[Fosse69]

7 hours ago, geosname said:

I find it amusing that politicians are screaming that Boris isn't giving them enough time to debate/stop brexit...... they have had three and a half years..... 42 months...... 178 weeks

Brexit has become a smoke screen for a power grab..... trouble is there is so much smoke created by politics the politicians can't find their way out.

You may say that..... I couldn't possibly comment...

Indeed, Brexit is a power grab, an extremist power group prevented the withdrawal deal being passed, they now control the government. Using "Will of the people" as the smoke screen for their ambitions as their only  interests are solely to further their fortunes, they are not interested in the welfare of the rest of the people. Will there be enough true Conservative MPs to oppose them and send them packing to their true leader Farage.