Hillsborough.

[Howjy04]

At what times did they open and close the gates?

 

How did they manage to close the gates when hundreds / thousands of fans would have been trying to get through the open gates?

 

Would I have opened them? I was not in charge of the policing.I was not trained to do the job.[/QUOT

Melv, the footage supplied by the Liverpool Echo shows the times.This was used in court.

[melv]

How many of the jury were actually at Hilsbourough?

 

I would think non because IF they were there they wouldn't be on the jury.

[melv]

At what times did they open and close the gates?

 

How did they manage to close the gates when hundreds / thousands of fans would have been trying to get through the open gates?

 

Would I have opened them? I was not in charge of the policing.I was not trained to do the job.[/QUOT

Melv, the footage supplied by the Liverpool Echo shows the times.This was used in court.

 

As far as I'm aware they were only opened the once.

 

But even if they were opened,closed, as you say multiple times.Where were the fans expected to go?Into an even tighter,more cramped bottle neck?

[For Us All]

Anyone who started following football after about 1992 wouldn't know how dangerous it used to be to attend a football match. Crowd safety measures weren't even a consideration, and violence was never far away. I'm sure that the prevailing climate of football crowds back then would have influenced the actions of policing on the day.

 

RIP the 96.

 

I recall going to Stoke's two League Cup semi-final replays in 1972.Frightened the life out of me,one was held at Hillsborough when the kick-off was delayed due to congestion and I can remember feeling really anxious amongst the 46,000+ crowd on the approach to and from the ground.The second replay was held at Old Trafford when the ground was being refurbished and the capacity had been reduced to 50,000.The crowd surge at the end of the game as the fans left the ground was the worst I have experienced and the wet and windy weather didn't help the situation.The feeling of being so helpless when you are being carried along by a huge group of people is the worst feeling in the world.

[Howjy04]

Melv, study the Echo footage.3 times.Where were they supposed to go?So if the gate was not opened what would or may have happened?Duckenfield is a lying **** no question but I'm not sure what else could have been done.Tradegy outside or inside?RIP the 96.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

But in your example above, the driver was not trying to avert a possibly serious situation which was becoming apparent... I do agree with your second statement though, Let right be done.

 

True but the point is the fact it may have been a snap decision made for all the right reasons/motives does not absolve anyone of the consequences of that decision.

 

As you say, the criminal process will decide if anyone is criminally responsible or whether there is sufficient evidence to prove someone is.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Has any evidence been provided that there were significant numbers who turned up without tickets and tried to get in? I'm not saying there were or were not cos I don't know. It's an FA cup semi final so I'd be astonished if some did not turn up ticketless and try to get in but the point is it has to be a 'significant' number..enough to have made a difference

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I Don't read the Sun. The question I'll ask you is how many on the jury were actually at Hillsborough?

 

How many pontificating on here have heard ALL the evidence?

[Jacko51]

Melv, study the Echo footage.3 times.Where were they supposed to go?So if the gate was not opened what would or may have happened?Duckenfield is a lying **** no question but I'm not sure what else could have been done.Tradegy outside or inside?RIP the 96.

 

It doesn't actually matter how many times Gate C was opened, it is simply a FACT that the crowd management outside the ground demonstrated total incompetence by the match commander. It is also a FACT that when the match was abandoned there were less people on the Leppings Lane terrace than tickets sold for that area. As I said before, ticketless fans therefore become a complete irrelevance as does the fact that some fans gained access to the ground not through the turnstiles. There are a considerable number of guilty parties in all of this:

 

The FA for awarding the match to a ground without a safety certificate and a history of problems at semi-finals then messing up the ticket allocation.

 

The SYP for giving the gig to a completely inexerience match commander then failing to ensure that he had a clue what he was doing.

 

The match commander himself for failing to familiarise himself with the procedures adopted at previous games of this sort then failing miserably to respond to what was happening in front of his eyes.

 

A minority of the police officers on the perimeter of the pitch who ignored appeals for help.

 

The Yorkshire Ambulance Service for an abysmal response to what was happening.

 

They are all guilty before and during the event whilst there is a whole raft of organisations and individuals who have responsibility for the cover up afterwards.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the fans do not appear in that list at all.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

For me the point is irrespective of what fans did or did not do the police (and others) are there to manage the situation and it's been decided by a group of ordinary men and women that have heard ALL the evidence presented to them that they failed to do so to an extent that the dead were unlawfully killed.

 

A line has been drawn under that

 

It is now a matter of deciding thru due process if any individuals can be proven to be criminally responsible for any of those deaths

 

Additionally have any other laws such as purjery, health and safety etc been proven to have been broken by any individuals involved.

 

We've moved on from where blame lies to have criminal acts been committed and can guilt be proven...WE'VE MOVED ON

[Howjy04]

How many pontificating on here have heard ALL the evidence?

 

All the evidence is on the LFC forums JA.

[Howjy04]

Jean,you say it doesn't matter how many times gate C was opened.I asked the question to Melv.What would you have done and what may have happened if the gate hadn't been opened?Ii don't think anyone wanted anyone else to die on that day.As JA said,we move on.

[Fosse69]

Melv, study the Echo footage.3 times.Where were they supposed to go?So if the gate was not opened what would or may have happened?Duckenfield is a lying **** no question but I'm not sure what else could have been done.Tradegy outside or inside?RIP the 96.

The solution should have been to delay the KO, draft additional police to control the queue, so reducing the pressure around the turnstiles, and allow orderly access to the ground. Duckenfield lies were not the point at the time, as the match commander he carries all the blame for not preparing for the match, ignoring the safety guidelines for the stadium, and ordering the gate to be opened.

[ELDERBEZZA]

I remember it very well Dave.I also remember the 2 scousers coming through the RS roof.One landing on the girders ,the other on some old chap's head.

 

I was one of the youngsters that ended up sitting alongside the goal posts at the Hamil End ,after the rush and crush incident.We were all frightened at the time.Over 42000 was the official gate,but thousands got in free!!

[Davebrad]

anyone who went to matches pre 1990 know what it was like, the police thought we were the lowest of the low, someone to hone there customer skills on, but fans were no angels... "some" must have gone without tickets hopeing to get in somehow for a important match as this. when the gates were opened (how many times? it was getting near kick off time aswell, well... my respects to the 96 and will always remember them for the were the innocents they were in the ground, looking for a good place to watch, soaking up the atmosphere, then that surge down the tunnel...

we can and do blame the police, the FA, the ambulance service, ground design, and hopfully they will be sorted, but those fans who surged in after the gates had been opened cannot be blameless, because it was that, that crushed the 96 against that bloody fence that had to be put up because of the football culture of the time...