Hillsborough.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Advance 27yrs and todays health and safety probably would get it near right but you can't predict what people will do. going a step further if your young lad says to you one morning dad can I go school by my self today cause I,m 7 now, and billy does,he's your responsibility but you let him go knowing he's to cross 2 roads, as he crosses the 2nd road a car swerves to miss him and the driver dies, a tragic accident but technically you failed in your responsibility/duty of care to him...

 

And if the law was that you are legally responsible for getting him safely to school you'd be charged accordingly. There may be a case of neglect in letting him go on his own when you knew the dangers.

 

That's the point (I think)..the police etc had a legal responsibility to ensure the safety of the fans and they failed to do so...now it's to be determined if individuals are responsible

[Jacko51]

simplified I know but all we can do is our best with the info we've got at the time, there is blame to be attached then its his bosses who put him in that position with out proper training... lets hope we can find any people responsible and it does not turn into a witch hunt.

 

Dave, if you have ten minutes, have a read of David Conn's piece in the Guardian and see if you still think that the match commander did his best.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

[Davebrad]

if there had been fatalites at the gate caused by the gate not being opened then the cry would have been why did the police not open it. All I'm saying is at the moment the gate was ordered open it was ordered with the information available there in front of them, as I said before a picture taken at 1453 shows the crowd in the approach road, it shows fans crowding up to the gate with fans up on the wall, who were either trying to climb over or get out of the push. You can train and practice any scenario but it does not always go as you want it...

[Fosse69]

if there had been fatalites at the gate caused by the gate not being opened then the cry would have been why did the police not open it. All I'm saying is at the moment the gate was ordered open it was ordered with the information available there in front of them, as I said before a picture taken at 1453 shows the crowd in the approach road, it shows fans crowding up to the gate with fans up on the wall, who were either trying to climb over or get out of the push. You can train and practice any scenario but it does not always go as you want it...

Please do as Jacko suggests

[Davebrad]

Dave, if you have ten minutes, have a read of David Conn's piece in the Guardian and see if you still think that the match commander did his best.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

 

thanks and also Fosse69, I,ve just read it a sombre report, and I admit some of my arguments fail, but I,ve still the niggle about what might have happened if the gate had not been opened? as aside earlier this season I was talking to a mate who was a steward and a couple of police came over and was asking him what's this stand called and where's the away end...

[Warren]

Back in 1989 I and probably many other people not having eye witness were more prone to believing the authorities in their explanations because of the history of hooliganism in football at that time. That includes the incident at Heysel stadium in 1984 involving Liverpool supporters where fan hatred and fighting were a factor alongside an unsafe stadium.

 

But a bit like Londonderry in 1972, after many years an accurate account of events has been secured and the wrong doing of the authorities and particularly the police is evident.

[melv]

if there had been fatalites at the gate caused by the gate not being opened then the cry would have been why did the police not open it. All I'm saying is at the moment the gate was ordered open it was ordered with the information available there in front of them, as I said before a picture taken at 1453 shows the crowd in the approach road, it shows fans crowding up to the gate with fans up on the wall, who were either trying to climb over or get out of the push. You can train and practice any scenario but it does not always go as you want it...

 

So why not delay kick off?

[Fosse69]

thanks and also Fosse69, I,ve just read it a sombre report, and I admit some of my arguments fail, but I,ve still the niggle about what might have happened if the gate had not been opened? as aside earlier this season I was talking to a mate who was a steward and a couple of police came over and was asking him what's this stand called and where's the away end...

Of course we do not know what would have happened, there could well have been injuries but the crowd was reasonably stable, and why did the police not slow down the build up of the congestion around the turnstiles. I did not notice any horses which are usually used to control large crowds. As regards Vale Park also, I think "Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" is apt. H&S has its detractors but grounds are much safer nowadays, albeit more expensive.

[Davebrad]

So why not delay kick off?

 

I suppose, but would there have been pressure from the FA and/or tv company...

[Houston Valiant]

Back in 1989 I and probably many other people not having eye witness were more prone to believing the authorities in their explanations because of the history of hooliganism in football at that time. That includes the incident at Heysel stadium in 1984 involving Liverpool supporters where fan hatred and fighting were a factor alongside an unsafe stadium.

 

But a bit like Londonderry in 1972, after many years an accurate account of events has been secured and the wrong doing of the authorities and particularly the police is evident.

 

 

Derry

[Fosse69]

So why not delay kick off?

Excuse was that it would increase traffic congestion after the game..........pretty feeble. I travelled back from Chesterfield to Leics that day on the M1, no roadworks, but most Vale fans would not have used the M1 in any case. Football specials can be retimed also

[melv]

I suppose, but would there have been pressure from the FA and/or tv company...

 

Which in itself opens another can of worms.About the power TV companies think they have.

[Davebrad]

Which in itself opens another can of worms.About the power TV companies think they have.

 

when they first started televising games they told the FA nothing will change, but it wasn't long before odd time kick-offs to suit programs, the ref waiting for the nod that the commercials had finished,

[melv]

Dave, if you have ten minutes, have a read of David Conn's piece in the Guardian and see if you still think that the match commander did his best.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

 

That's a very good and interesting read. cheers.

[mr.hobblesworth]

A heartbreaking read in yesterday's Observer.

 

Then the moment is gone. For the coroner is on to Q7: “Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?”

 

This is not just a question of truth now: people’s lives are in the balance. To be unfairly blamed for killing people is an insult so grievous as to seriously disturb the mind. I know of one survivor, “Ian”, who lost a friend in pen 3. In 2007, Ian became upset about the controversy generated by the appearance of Kelvin MacKenzie on Newsnight, and a few weeks later he hanged himself. There was Stephen Whittle, who gave his match ticket to a friend, who died. In February 2011, Stephen stepped in front of an express train. Two of my mates who survived pen 3 have tried to kill themselves; both, mercifully, survived. But we know that if this next question goes against us, people will almost certainly take their own lives. The jury cannot know this, of course. I look around at Deb, at Richie, at Damian and Lou. No one looks at me.

 

The coroner: “Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Is your answer No?”

 

“It is.”

 

People leap to their feet and punch the air. But again, momentary relief, for we are only halfway there. Now, having answered No, the jury are asked a supplementary question: was there any behaviour on the part of supporters that may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? That “may” sets the threshold so low, we fear the jury are practically being urged to find against us. As Tim Knowles said over an anguished pint a few months ago: “What kind of question is ‘May have?’ I might be found responsible for killing my friends on the basis of a vague, theoretical possibility.”

 

On 15 April 1989, I walked into Hillsborough. An hour later I am caught somewhere between this life and the next

But there is nothing vague about will happen to us: we will be vilified once more – for ever more – by the rightwing media and the police. We will be, for the first time in an official hearing, found culpable in killing our fellow fans. It is not the jury’s fault: they have been bounced into this. But people will die on a Yes, they may have…

 

The coroner: “Was there any behaviour on the part of supporters that may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Is your answer No?”

 

I am sitting down but my knees give way. Tears are falling either side of my nose. The woman with the reassuring voice says “It is.”

 

And the place erupts.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/01/hillsborough-inquest-survivor-adrian-tempany