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Playa Amodores

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5 hours ago, robf said:

This is where I beg to differ and to be honest, I also disagree with Carol on this.

With my tin hat on, I don't think Vale Park is a good stadium. It's a big stadium yes, but it's also an old stadium and one built in a different age and which struggles to cope in the modern era. Compared to a lot of other grounds, the transport links are awful and the parking is awful. 

We surely need to be aiming for big crowds as a regular occurrence but as Saturday shows that when we get them the general infrastructure both in and out of the stadium really struggles to cope. The end result is often frustration and anger from fans and that can't help attract new ones.

I don't think the argument that all new grounds are bad is true. A lot are bad but with some imagination and skill it is possible to have a new ground which works. 

It would cost a lot of money, yes, but then it depends on what revenue streams it brings in to pay those costs. A stadium where events could be held (e.g. concerts in the summer without annoying the neighbours) means the stadium would bring in money all through the year (Vale Park only brings it in for nine months). A stadium with good transport links is more attractive for business meetings, conferences, again bringing in more money. New facilities means significantly less costs on constantly fixing things (isn't the PA system alone at VP going to cost £1/2m). Even if cosmetic things are done to VP, we still have a stadium with old stands which both have steelwork disrupting the view and poor sightlines because seats have basically been bolted onto terracing. Then there's that pitch and the cost of sorting it out...

For me, the reasons to stay at Vale Park are the wrong ones - nostalgia, history etc. However, in 1950 Vale Park WAS a new ground and we've moved regularly through our history so I don't understand the resistance to at least considering another one to bring us into this century. If there simply isn't a suitable site then fair enough but I don't like the view that we should never consider any other option than staying at Vale Park. 

I think Vale Park is perfectly capable of holding a big crowd. We were told to arrive early for the game, which many did (as queues had formed for turnstiles in the Railway and Bycars well before 2pm) but it was 2:05pm by the time they started letting anybody in and not all turnstiles were open. I’d put this down to ‘human error’ as it is rather than a Vale Park issue.

I know VP isn’t perfect but I think we’re quite fortunate really. Look at clubs like Barrow (we all know how shocking it is but they haven’t been in the Football League for long in fairness) Bristol Rovers has a ground with temporary tents being used as stands and Swindon’s ground certainly isn’t perfect either with a goal end missing an entire roof. I’d take VP any day of the week.

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On 14/11/2021 at 14:23, Playa Amodores said:

Biddulph I like your comment re the blue seats even though we have had blue away shirts, but why the white.That’s the only part of the ground where I’ve never watched a game. As a kid I’ve even sat in the wall with the behind the church, until they opened the gates with twenty mins to go then we’d go into the LS. Even when they put glass on top of the wall we’d sit on it.

I remember those days when we were let in 20 minutes from the end!

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2 hours ago, FeedThePope9 said:

I think Vale Park is perfectly capable of holding a big crowd. We were told to arrive early for the game, which many did (as queues had formed for turnstiles in the Railway and Bycars well before 2pm) but it was 2:05pm by the time they started letting anybody in and not all turnstiles were open. I’d put this down to ‘human error’ as it is rather than a Vale Park issue.

I know VP isn’t perfect but I think we’re quite fortunate really. Look at clubs like Barrow (we all know how shocking it is but they haven’t been in the Football League for long in fairness) Bristol Rovers has a ground with temporary tents being used as stands and Swindon’s ground certainly isn’t perfect either with a goal end missing an entire roof. I’d take VP any day of the week.

Yep, I'm not saying that moving is essential or urgent but I do think it should be considered an option. I don't buy the "we have to stay at Vale Park" argument.

If we have a long-term plan to progress as a club then (without getting ahead of ourselves) we shouldn't compare ourselves with Barrow, Sutton etc but rather with higher-division stadia like Bolton, Milton Keynes and so on... It's when you compare us with those sorts of set-ups that I think you can see how far we have to go.

With the crowds we get now, clearly Vale Park can cope - far better than many clubs in this division - but surely our long-term goal is to be in a higher division and to cope with the budgets some of those clubs have we need to ensure everything at the club - coaching, academy, staff, marketing AND stadium are as competitive as possible.

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I can’t see how you reckon the parking is awful. There is a massive amount of parking on three sides of the ground and public car parks In Burslem. Try parking at most Premier League grounds. 

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Very few modern grounds are that nice outside the big Prem club ones. Colchester’s for example is perfectly functional with nice modern facilities but soulless and boring. 

Vale Park needs a major refurbishment no question. Ideally the Bycars, Railway and family stand all need replacing. The 2nd part of the Lorne street needs opening and only the existing part of the Lorne Street and away end are fit for purpose. 

I would be devastated if we left Vale Park too many memories of several family generations. It is in many ways as a current exile, one of my few long term links with the area left. 
 

Having said that, I thought Saturday went well, it was no different to the Championship era in the 90s. We have always had long queues, it just seems people expect more these days. For me, it was a proper match atmosphere. A lack of pies and waiting ages for a pee are problems but I don’t recall moaning in 1995. 

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59 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

I can’t see how you reckon the parking is awful. There is a massive amount of parking on three sides of the ground and public car parks In Burslem. Try parking at most Premier League grounds. 

Agreed! They have parking restrictions 2 miles out in some cases! 

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1 hour ago, robf said:

Yep, I'm not saying that moving is essential or urgent but I do think it should be considered an option. I don't buy the "we have to stay at Vale Park" argument.

If we have a long-term plan to progress as a club then (without getting ahead of ourselves) we shouldn't compare ourselves with Barrow, Sutton etc but rather with higher-division stadia like Bolton, Milton Keynes and so on... It's when you compare us with those sorts of set-ups that I think you can see how far we have to go.

With the crowds we get now, clearly Vale Park can cope - far better than many clubs in this division - but surely our long-term goal is to be in a higher division and to cope with the budgets some of those clubs have we need to ensure everything at the club - coaching, academy, staff, marketing AND stadium are as competitive as possible.

MK Dons stadium despite looking nice was actually sheer hell to get out of last time we played them in the FA cup and they only had about 3k! Sharing a car park with a massive retail park isn’t great. 

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20 hours ago, Loggerheads Sage said:

The RP, RS were both  "sold out",  I sit opposite in LS.  There were hundreds of empty seats in both. This is not ST holders not attending. The empty seats were all together at the Bycars end of the stands.

I'm now sure , for whatever reasons,  our capacity has been dramatically reduced.  I doubt we could get over 13000 allowed now.

I think, perhaps colin garlick,  ought to comment on this.

Although seeing folk arriving in the Bycars missing 20 odd minutes,  maybe it's a good job we don't usually get good crowds?

I couldn't understand the 'sold out' message as it looked like there were dozens and dozens , probably hundreds of empty seats in all stands except Bycars which was the fullest I've seen it for years.

I thought the capacity was 18K?

Why say it was sold out when it obviously wasn't, therefore turning away custom and income.

It just doesn't make sense to me, but I suppose there must be a reason?

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10 hours ago, robf said:

This is where I beg to differ and to be honest, I also disagree with Carol on this.

With my tin hat on, I don't think Vale Park is a good stadium. It's a big stadium yes, but it's also an old stadium and one built in a different age and which struggles to cope in the modern era. Compared to a lot of other grounds, the transport links are awful and the parking is awful. 

We surely need to be aiming for big crowds as a regular occurrence but as Saturday shows that when we get them the general infrastructure both in and out of the stadium really struggles to cope. The end result is often frustration and anger from fans and that can't help attract new ones.

I don't think the argument that all new grounds are bad is true. A lot are bad but with some imagination and skill it is possible to have a new ground which works. 

It would cost a lot of money, yes, but then it depends on what revenue streams it brings in to pay those costs. A stadium where events could be held (e.g. concerts in the summer without annoying the neighbours) means the stadium would bring in money all through the year (Vale Park only brings it in for nine months). A stadium with good transport links is more attractive for business meetings, conferences, again bringing in more money. New facilities means significantly less costs on constantly fixing things (isn't the PA system alone at VP going to cost £1/2m). Even if cosmetic things are done to VP, we still have a stadium with old stands which both have steelwork disrupting the view and poor sightlines because seats have basically been bolted onto terracing. Then there's that pitch and the cost of sorting it out...

For me, the reasons to stay at Vale Park are the wrong ones - nostalgia, history etc. However, in 1950 Vale Park WAS a new ground and we've moved regularly through our history so I don't understand the resistance to at least considering another one to bring us into this century. If there simply isn't a suitable site then fair enough but I don't like the view that we should never consider any other option than staying at Vale Park. 

The main point is the connection to Burslem if you not listened to Carols view on this or when she’s talked about Synectics?  It is about identity.

If you want to look at it from another angle then the club is vital to the towns economy.

OK, we’ve moved for various reasons in our history, the last being 1950.  I wouldn’t say this was a regular occurrence by any stretch.

On a more personal note, upon entering the Bycars on Monday I walked down the first flight of steps by the tea bar, as normal, to the bottom and by the memorial in the corner.  As I looked at the memorial I didn’t feel nostalgic, or start to think about the history of the place, or even the consider match at that moment.  So, whilst I (we) may have a moan about queues, turnstiles and catering facilities, it’s also important to keep things in perspective.

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I couldn't understand the 'sold out' message as it looked like there were dozens and dozens , probably hundreds of empty seats in all stands except Bycars which was the fullest I've seen it for years.
I thought the capacity was 18K?
Why say it was sold out when it obviously wasn't, therefore turning away custom and income.
It just doesn't make sense to me, but I suppose there must be a reason?
The difference between the actual number of seats and the safe number of seats allowed to be sold quoted in the Safety Certificate is likely to be in the order of 2/3,000. Garlick will know. Exits and Entrance route capacities, number of turnstiles, are some factors involved.
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11 hours ago, robf said:

This is where I beg to differ and to be honest, I also disagree with Carol on this.

With my tin hat on, I don't think Vale Park is a good stadium. It's a big stadium yes, but it's also an old stadium and one built in a different age and which struggles to cope in the modern era. Compared to a lot of other grounds, the transport links are awful and the parking is awful. 

We surely need to be aiming for big crowds as a regular occurrence but as Saturday shows that when we get them the general infrastructure both in and out of the stadium really struggles to cope. The end result is often frustration and anger from fans and that can't help attract new ones.

I don't think the argument that all new grounds are bad is true. A lot are bad but with some imagination and skill it is possible to have a new ground which works. 

It would cost a lot of money, yes, but then it depends on what revenue streams it brings in to pay those costs. A stadium where events could be held (e.g. concerts in the summer without annoying the neighbours) means the stadium would bring in money all through the year (Vale Park only brings it in for nine months). A stadium with good transport links is more attractive for business meetings, conferences, again bringing in more money. New facilities means significantly less costs on constantly fixing things (isn't the PA system alone at VP going to cost £1/2m). Even if cosmetic things are done to VP, we still have a stadium with old stands which both have steelwork disrupting the view and poor sightlines because seats have basically been bolted onto terracing. Then there's that pitch and the cost of sorting it out...

For me, the reasons to stay at Vale Park are the wrong ones - nostalgia, history etc. However, in 1950 Vale Park WAS a new ground and we've moved regularly through our history so I don't understand the resistance to at least considering another one to bring us into this century. If there simply isn't a suitable site then fair enough but I don't like the view that we should never consider any other option than staying at Vale Park. 

In my ideal dream world I would like to demolish the Old Family Stand, Railway Stand, Railway Paddock and Police Box and build a new stand pushed right up to the current touch line.

Lorne Street and Hamil stands are all relatively new that would leave the Bycars to be developed when we are in the Premier League.

Like I said in my dream world.

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2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

I can’t see how you reckon the parking is awful. There is a massive amount of parking on three sides of the ground and public car parks In Burslem. Try parking at most Premier League grounds. 

Side streets off Scotia Road,Dollies Lane,Park Estate,Smallthorne etc etc

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51 minutes ago, blackdog said:

In my ideal dream world I would like to demolish the Old Family Stand, Railway Stand, Railway Paddock and Police Box and build a new stand pushed right up to the current touch line.

Lorne Street and Hamil stands are all relatively new that would leave the Bycars to be developed when we are in the Premier League.

Like I said in my dream world.

I don’t think it’s that far fetched (except Vale in the Premier League 😄). It must be on the Carol’s radar as a long term plan, as the Railway simply isn’t fit for purpose. However, first we need to get a training ground, in order to move the player’s gym out of the Lorne Street, and then finish the Lorne Street concourse, and then a new pitch. So, a lot to do first!

I do think a new stand closer to the pitch will transform Vale Park. Also lots of land to create facilities or add additional car parking.

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2 hours ago, jimbo57 said:

I couldn't understand the 'sold out' message as it looked like there were dozens and dozens , probably hundreds of empty seats in all stands except Bycars which was the fullest I've seen it for years.

I thought the capacity was 18K?

Why say it was sold out when it obviously wasn't, therefore turning away custom and income.

It just doesn't make sense to me, but I suppose there must be a reason?

The current capacity is 15,036.  The Railway Stand allowed capacity is 2,094. There are a number of safety restrictions on the ground at the moment. 

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7 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

The current capacity is 15,036.  The Railway Stand allowed capacity is 2,094. There are a number of safety restrictions on the ground at the moment. 

Thanks Jean, very  interesting. 

I wonder if these restrictions are solvable at a reasonable cost or basically there is nothing we can do.

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Posted (edited)

I would start with demolishing and refurbishing the entries. I really, truly don't get the fascination with those 1.6 feet turnstiles, any normal size adult have to squeeze through and almost pop out on the other side. It's old, it's outdated and in speeds down the entry process needlessly. 

I've said it before elsewhere, but something like these:

images.jpeg

Edited by Danish Valiant

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4 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

I can’t see how you reckon the parking is awful. There is a massive amount of parking on three sides of the ground and public car parks In Burslem. Try parking at most Premier League grounds. 

Plus both Oldham and Bristol advertised on there fans websites for pre booking parking on dimensions car park ,and didn’t Haywood high start advertising a few years back fans could park on there car park, Chuck in all the street parking off scotia road and park estate I would say we are blessed with car parking 

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