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1 hour ago, Danish Valiant said:

I think the discussion is a bit of a paradox. Because on one hand, people are saying "big clear out" and "no room for sentiment". But on the other hand, some wants to keep Pope, based on sentiment in its purest form.
I voted no, as I believe we need to have better all round choices, with a reduced squad size. 

I’d keep Pope not based on any sentiment but in the belief he can do a job off the bench for one more season in this league.  Whether we like it or not, many teams, ourselves included, play a lot of hoof ball at this level. He’s still one of the best headers of the ball  and can play on the deck it’s mobility that’s the issue.  Whether the odd cameo off the bench would be acceptable to TP though is a different debate.

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Smith played 46 league games for us in L1, in a season where if Norman hadn't flogged two of our best players, we would have stayed up. Despite one bonkers and one useless manager., and an acid fuelle

My opinion on this is that what has happened today is what many have been crying out for in an age.  Since Adams left we have promoted from within apart from the Bruno experiment. How many of us

Very sad for Scott Brown and Luke Joyce. They go with my thanks for their efforts. Losing Tom Pope is equally sad but that’s the right decision. 

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For me Tom has to ge given a twelve month contract as Robinson isn’t in the same class but it’s a pity we can’t find another Steve McPhee but finding one would cost more than a new contract for Tom and whilst Robinson has improved we can’t rely solely on Rodney, and of course Colon  for the goals. Get Taylor  fit, who  has been lazy before coming here again, in my opinion and we have a stronger and more supportive midfield since the loss of Manny..we have to keep Joyce as well as we miss him when he doesn’t play, except for his back passes 😂😂 of course: Raveninblack

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3 hours ago, philmpv said:

If it was literally any other player but Pope it wouldn't even be in question. His goal and assist output over the past 2 years since he got his fat new contract has been pathetic (particularly if you take out the penalties). At 36, he's not going to get any better. We've played much better and got better results since he has been out of the team over the past 2 seasons. His impact on games when coming on as a sub has been negligible (certainly from a pure change of result perspective). So many people unable to let go. The sooner he's gone the better for me. Mark my words, once he has, we'll see a huge upswing in both results and performance.

I think TP’s chances of playing will be greatly reduced and he will accept an offer from another club, possibly in L2, if not then certainly National League. It will only be a 12 month contract based on appearances as to wether it gets extended. When we were on that big slump I really wanted him to come back score goals and keep us up. If that had been the case then I’d have offered TP a 12 month contract. I don’t see it happening and think DC will want to go in his own direction, with his own players. If this is the case I wish TP all the best and would like to thank him for everything he has done on the pitch whilst at the club.

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For me Tom has to ge given a twelve month contract as Robinson isn’t in the same class but it’s a pity we can’t find another Steve McPhee but finding one would cost more than a new contract for Tom and whilst Robinson has improved we can’t rely solely on Rodney, and of course Colon  for the goals. Get Taylor  fit, who  has been lazy before coming here again, in my opinion and we have a stronger and more supportive midfield since the loss of Manny..we have to keep Joyce as well as we miss him when he doesn’t play, except for his back passes of course: Raveninblack
You say that but over the past 2 seasons Robinson has averaged a goal every 210 minutes of game time, whereas Pope is at 214. I judge strikers on first and foremost on their goal output, then assists, then general all round play. Whichever way you look at it, Pope is no better than Robinson in those respects, and he's much worse than Rodney. Add into the mix that he clearly hasn't looked after himself whilst he's been out, to the extent where he makes Akinfenwa look slim, despite needing a new contract, and I personally don't think there should be any question as to whether he'll get an extension.

As for Joyce, he's a liability. I hate the argument that we don't win without Joyce. Virtually every other team in this league plays perfectly well, and win, without Luke Joyce. Our problem has stemmed from not Joyce's perceived magical abilities, but from the simple fact that we haven't signed, nor it seems look to sign, anybody to play his role. There is much younger and better than Joyce out there every summer. This summer we will find that player, probably 2.

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Posted (edited)

Is there a chance that years of poor recruitment has left Vale fans (understandably) fearful of looking for change, having been stung by the transfer market so many times before?

We've been on an overall trend of signing poorer and poorer quality players. It's no wonder fans are leaning towards keeping tried-and-tested veterans like Pope and Joyce. On previous evidence, we'll knacker it up and sign some proper frauds. You could argue the last 'successful' window we had was Page's transfer window - every squad since then, bar last season which had few impactful changes from the season before, has underperformed. 

However, I've got faith that the new setup will deliver far more satisfying results. 

Fundamentally, and we all know it, there are better players willing to play for Port Vale than Pope, Joyce, Montano, Brisley, Crookes, and possibly even Brown. We've just been so bad at signings that maybe some fans doubt we'll be the ones to find these 'better' players (or we'll be gazumped by Bradford/played like a fiddle before the player scarpers back to Mansfield). 

I'm looking forward to not hearing 'we're waiting till the end of the window so it's cheaper', personally. In retrospect, that was an outrageously poor comment as it signified a) we were willing to compromise on quality and let good players go elsewhere, and b) getting players cheaper than usual was more important than assembling a promotion-winning side.

Bin that mentality off. Get good players in and pay them the money they deserve. 

 

Edited by Joe B
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4 hours ago, Joe B said:

Is there a chance that years of poor recruitment has left Vale fans (understandably) fearful of looking for change, having been stung by the transfer market so many times before?

We've been on an overall trend of signing poorer and poorer quality players. It's no wonder fans are leaning towards keeping tried-and-tested veterans like Pope and Joyce. On previous evidence, we'll knacker it up and sign some proper frauds. You could argue the last 'successful' window we had was Page's transfer window - every squad since then, bar last season which had few impactful changes from the season before, has underperformed. 

However, I've got faith that the new setup will deliver far more satisfying results. 

Fundamentally, and we all know it, there are better players willing to play for Port Vale than Pope, Joyce, Montano, Brisley, Crookes, and possibly even Brown. We've just been so bad at signings that maybe some fans doubt we'll be the ones to find these 'better' players (or we'll be gazumped by Bradford/played like a fiddle before the player scarpers back to Mansfield). 

I'm looking forward to not hearing 'we're waiting till the end of the window so it's cheaper', personally. In retrospect, that was an outrageously poor comment as it signified a) we were willing to compromise on quality and let good players go elsewhere, and b) getting players cheaper than usual was more important than assembling a promotion-winning side.

Bin that mentality off. Get good players in and pay them the money they deserve. 

 

All well and good, you'd have to expect that we'll be smarter in our recruitment going forward, but ultimately it boils down to money.  You may wish to refer back to what DC had to say earlier this very evening about signing a nailed on 20 goal a season striker.  Could just be him playing mind games of course but it's also fair too say that we aren't among the financial big hitters in this division.

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All well and good, you'd have to expect that we'll be smarter in our recruitment going forward, but ultimately it boils down to money.  You may wish to refer back to what DC had to say earlier this very evening about signing a nailed on 20 goal a season striker.  Could just be him playing mind games of course but it's also fair too say that we aren't among the financial big hitters in this division.

I bet we are these days much closer to being than we were previously in fairness.

I could be wrong but I don’t envision us not investing well in the team to back DC after putting all this structure in place at a cost. We also were keen to see the salary cap ditched.

Salford of course through money around like confetti and surely Bolton but outside of that I’d imagine we are in the next tranche of clubs budget wise.
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3 hours ago, valefan16 said:


I bet we are these days much closer to being than we were previously in fairness.

I could be wrong but I don’t envision us not investing well in the team to back DC after putting all this structure in place at a cost. We also were keen to see the salary cap ditched.

Salford of course through money around like confetti and surely Bolton but outside of that I’d imagine we are in the next tranche of clubs budget wise.

We are happy to see the salary cap ditched but not the financial fair play cap. That keeps our budget at 1.8 million. As a club we are voting for that to be spread over 22 outfield players plus goalkeepers.  In reality that leaves our budget where it is and in all probability pretty much our current sized squad. The cap that is being removed is the fixed one for all clubs; the one based on percentage of turnover will remain. We aren't able to spend that much more next season than this.

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6 hours ago, valefan16 said:


I bet we are these days much closer to being than we were previously in fairness.

I could be wrong but I don’t envision us not investing well in the team to back DC after putting all this structure in place at a cost. We also were keen to see the salary cap ditched.

Salford of course through money around like confetti and surely Bolton but outside of that I’d imagine we are in the next tranche of clubs budget wise.

yes no excuses budget wise, Carol has put up more money than can be expected and it's time for DC to spend it wisely, because there is plenty available if reported figures are true.

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13 hours ago, philmpv said:

Enlighten me. Which part of my post do I need help on? Am I factually incorrect? Or is your response that of someone in denial that Pope is no longer the player that he was, of which appear to be many?
 

IThe underlying theme of this and other posts 

Your strange hatred of everything Pope

Thats why you need help

Jealousy is not a nice trait

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Sadly I feel Pope time at vale is up , he’s had a poor season though injury etc and he’s 35 years old  Would I like Pope next year ?  That’s a real  question my head says No but my heart says yes . I think DC has a hard decision on Tom 

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So, simply because I don't rate Pope and feel compelled to respond to the repeated hysteria, untruths and downright bizarre comments (like the one that claimed he'd be scoring 15+ in the Bundesliga even now) regarding him, I hate him and am jealous? If it pleases you to think that, you crack on bud.

IThe underlying theme of this and other posts 
Your strange hatred of everything Pope
Thats why you need help
Jealousy is not a nice trait

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18 hours ago, philmpv said:

If it was literally any other player but Pope it wouldn't even be in question. His goal and assist output over the past 2 years since he got his fat new contract has been pathetic (particularly if you take out the penalties). At 36, he's not going to get any better. We've played much better and got better results since he has been out of the team over the past 2 seasons. His impact on games when coming on as a sub has been negligible (certainly from a pure change of result perspective). So many people unable to let go. The sooner he's gone the better for me. Mark my words, once he has, we'll see a huge upswing in both results and performance.

John Askey and now,Darrell Clarke have realised that Pope is a back number.Our style of play has improved without him.I,along with others,am sick of seeing ale house football pandering to a player who scores very few,assists very few and is unable to play 2 games a week due to being grossly overweight and totally unfit.Thankyou Tom for 2012/13 but that was nearly a decade ago.Another season at the Vale would be an embarrassment to both club and player.Younger,fitter and less expensive please.People have  been talking about a testimonial.I mentioned this at the time Bury came in for him as a way of keeping him at the club.He chose the Bury shilling but couldn’t wait to get back when he was surplus at Bury,transfer listed by Flitcroft,and had a financial settlement to do so.In theory his testimonial was paid for by Bury who have paid the ultimate price for overpaying players and not what they are worth.Time for a big change and some attractive football.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, JRC said:

We are happy to see the salary cap ditched but not the financial fair play cap. That keeps our budget at 1.8 million. As a club we are voting for that to be spread over 22 outfield players plus goalkeepers.  In reality that leaves our budget where it is and in all probability pretty much our current sized squad. The cap that is being removed is the fixed one for all clubs; the one based on percentage of turnover will remain. We aren't able to spend that much more next season than this.

Unless changed the Fair Play cap had a few caveats if a club owner wanted to "get around it", one being sponsorship... hence FGR for example and Mansfield spend big despite being smaller clubs as their shirts are sponsored by the owners companies... like ours are now so many get around it with that or Stadium Sponsorships.

Plus owners can put money in as long as its donated towards the figure IIRC hence the Salford case.

Not saying they will or should but could possibly get around that if they wished, however when I say I think we will invest more its from a low base, what I mean is I think they will invest properly rather than freebies from Macclesfield Town or players released from Barrow or something like the past.

They were prepared to invest last season in Maynard for example and the days of being cheap like under Smurf and V2001 I think will have passed, we are one of the biggest in the division (aside from Bolton and possibly Bradford and Tranmere) so expect we will flex muscles to our size which we hadnt under Norman in most cases rather than overspend like say Mansfield/Salford.

 

 

Edited by valefan16
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10 minutes ago, valeparklife said:

Would be a good move. Playing against the old firm. One of my favourites ended up in Scotland, Cardle. Although he seems to have wasted his career. Well it appears that way. Do any of you know if he has been the star man ?.

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2 hours ago, valefan16 said:

Unless changed the Fair Play cap had a few caveats if a club owner wanted to "get around it", one being sponsorship... hence FGR for example and Mansfield spend big despite being smaller clubs as their shirts are sponsored by the owners companies... like ours are now so many get around it with that or Stadium Sponsorships.

Plus owners can put money in as long as its donated towards the figure IIRC hence the Salford case.

Not saying they will or should but could possibly get around that if they wished, however when I say I think we will invest more its from a low base, what I mean is I think they will invest properly rather than freebies from Macclesfield Town or players released from Barrow or something like the past.

They were prepared to invest last season in Maynard for example and the days of being cheap like under Smurf and V2001 I think will have passed, we are one of the biggest in the division (aside from Bolton and possibly Bradford and Tranmere) so expect we will flex muscles to our size which we hadnt under Norman in most cases rather than overspend like say Mansfield/Salford.

 

 

Last season we would have met our cap under FFP. We met our cap under the budget limit for this season because a number of players wages who were already signed counted at a lower rate. There will not be a significant increase in our wage budget because we are already operating at about that level. We have a number of well paid players coming to the end of their deals, which will free up some wages. The issue for a number of seasons hasn't been the wage budget; it has been legacy players on high wages new managers haven't wanted to keep. When it came down to it with Maynard Mansfield were able to pay more. With hindsight we dodged a bullet as it looks like he carried on for one season more than his sell by date.

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