Ale and the Vale Podcast

[The_godfather]

Caveat to the following - I can't get to games live, so only watch games on iFollow.

Also, love the podcast, and not being critical, just adding to the discussion. With regards to giving players absolute pelters for crap performances, I think you're being pretty harsh 90% of the time. I'm not saying it's all not deserved, because there has been some dross, but I do think that there is a key explanation that carries greater weight than is discussed.

To explain why, I need to be critical of Clarke & the managerial team. Which is counterintuitive, because I like Clarke, and I think he is doing a good job! BUT, I don't think he helps the players all of the time. The constant rotation of players might be aimed at keeping the squad fresh, or due to injuries, but it also leads to massive inconsistency. Check out Bezza's spreadsheet that I'm sure he is keeping, and look at most people's ratings, and they will be yo-yoing up and down for the most part. Some will have steady 6's and 7's - Smith, Harrison - but many others will be 4, 7, 5, 8. Look at the scores for management too, up and down week to week. The main reason is rotation. Different positions week to week, different partners week to week at the back, in the middle, up front - how can you develop consistency by developing those close relationships you need? Why are Arsenal suddenly top of the Premier League? A couple of class additions to tip them over the edge, on top of a core group that have played 50+ games together now. We had 28 squad players before Small left, including McDermott and Agyakwa. 28! And yet somehow we are still 3-4 short in the January window. The premature promotion probably caused more turnover than planned but there is still too much flux in the team.

Clarke always said he likes to tinker, be flexible, reactive, etc. But ironically, while he has done it with the players, he's been pretty inflexible in terms of formation apart from when throwing a bunch of subs on; the switch to 3-4-3 last season for example was when Crosby was in charge. The roles that players are asked to play, that we ask of them, are often different. e.g. in our 3 man defence, often it is the central defender (Smith) who marks, with the others more progressive. I feel like the responsibilities of our wingbacks and wide defenders contributes to us conceding goals. Who is picking up who? We always seem vulnerable down the sides, and I think that is partly structural, not just personnel. In general, I think we probably ask too much of the wingbacks, which in our formation are the most important players on the pitch to provide width and creativity, plus provide defensive cover. In terms of formations, it's easy to ready too much into the numbers. I know Clarke, obtuse as he is, would say the same thing, i.e., It looks different on the pitch, it's different with and without the ball. While I know he would also say that each game is different and you should plan accordingly, but it's not like we are changing formations game to game to combat teams - we have our plan A, plus subs. Which, to be fair has worked a lot of the time.
However, for example, saying we shouldn't play Butterworth away because we are too open; there are ways around it. Play a nominal 3-5-1-1, with Butterworth in behind a single striker, and get the wing backs to push forwards more to provide support/thrust, in a 3-3-3-1 type formation; we've got plenty - Worrall, Massey, McCarron - who would want to play that way and you could start 3 in the middle still for more solidity. With the opposition pushing forwards, you would want to get Butterworth on the ball with space to play; he doesn't have to be a luxury home player.

To be fair, you could say that, on the one hand, the ask of the players from game to game is not too different - different defensive role, different partner - but let's take a few examples to illustrate the point I am butchering:

Massey - Bezza saying, on the one hand, he's <ovf censored>. But, on the other hand, there is a player there. Good as an impact, little impact from the start. But week to week he's played wing back, or striker, neither of which are his best position. Doesn't offer much going back, isn't a goal scorer. So what are we expecting from him? Goals, creativity, chances? In a wide forward position that would appear to suit him best, (i.e., 4-3-3, 3-4-3), he could isolate his man, and create chances, but he hasn't been given any chance to do that over a period. (I also think that a lack of pre-season, whether that reflects well on him, or not, is a big factor - he's probably only coming up to speed now fitness wise and he's learning about his teammates, style etc.). This also relates firmly to Politic too.

Cass - he's 22, has played 1 season in the National League, and half a season in League 2, and he gets stick nearly every week. He's still learning what the heck he's doing! He might have Massey, or Robinson, or Worrall ahead of him, none of whom are natural wingbacks; and Smith or Forrester beside him. Pretty steep learning curve in my opinion. If he was Gibbons (i.e. a youth teamer) I think he would be given a lot more rope.

McCarron - he's 21, mainly a winger and in terms of senior football played in League 2 three years ago. How exactly have we helped him to be ready to play? Chucked him in and then said he's anonymous.

The midfield roulette - who will be centre mid this week? Place your bets. Am I a holder, an engine, or a 10? Are we combined 9 feet high between 2 of us trying to win headers?

Benning has played most of his career at LB in League 2, and is now being asked to play wing back in League 1 in front of Connor Hall, who has struggled, or Dan Jones, who hasn't played higher than League 2 either and has been in and out of the side. I've got a soft spot for Benning, because I think it is hard to understate what he did last season - joined a new club where he was a legend at the old one, struggled and was out of the side, got his head down and worked super hard to get fit, then showed his quality in the run in. That's the kind of character you want at your club.  

Mipo has played 39 career games, of which about 80% would be sub appearances. He's probably an impact sub - is he being used in the best way to optimise his skills?

One last quick point, related to the above - it's also ridiculous for the fans to expect, based on all of this, for a sub to come on, and suddenly stake his claim to a starting place for the next game. Even if you have a blinder for 20 mins, it's completely situational, i.e., you're attacking, chasing the game at home, and next week you will likely be starting in a different position, with different players around you, in an away game where you're asked to be a bit more solid and cautious. And if you don't perform, people say - "well he didn't grab his chance" - after 1 game! You need 3-4 to generate some confidence, and consistency and hardly anyone gets it.

Anyway, just a thought, or two. Keep up the good work lads.

[Breadwinner]

Never watch goals what have gone in against us if at the games there quickly forgotten and if not ,I'm.hardly going put myself through watching the highlights on that new weird show .
I think I'll have a listen to this pod seems like folk have difference of opinion I think that's good .
Boring world it be if we all agreed with one another all the time .
Vale are coming into another tough set of fixtures in the away games I'd go solid this formation has to change no one's blocking shots yet when we have shots they block them there's something be said for that .
So a extra midfielder and say a Politic or butterworth in the hole where they usually are behind Harrison .
Must admit when I saw the starting 11 at Oxford I was disappointed that he didn't go with Politic I was looking forwards to seeing him do his stuff ,Butterworth did it in spasms in fact I thought he was pretty good first half and second half if he passed it quicker we would have been in .
Sometimes a scoreline is very false last sat there's no way they were 4 goals better than us but to still concede 4 goals when if you look at the whole game (well 65 for me as went )it wasn't a avalanche of attacks by them it was very sporadic the fact we were so charitable was a disgrace really.
Let's hope he realises Clark that blocking shots is important and that Conlon seems always to me in no man's land , shots fired in 3 times at Oxford in first half it happened twice v Exeter twice v Wycombe once v Ipswich and the balls ended up in our net far too many times .

It's happening too often if he is chosen to play alongside Pett again this Saturday as a defensive midfielder I'll be shocked he cannot do that job its proven he couldn't do it home games in league 2 v the likes of Tranmere when they banged in 4 I think 2 of them were long range efforts at end of game so let's not kid ourselves we need Garrity or Charsley or Walker alongside Pett for me and move Conlon as far away from our goal as possible
What do you pod lads think of that .
We are not a bad side just lacking a bit of courage and fibre once show that more the wins will come regularly I think well hope
UTV

[Vale Ball]

Its starting to grate on me now sprouting nonsense to a large amount of vale fans.

Oh dear.....Opinions Opinions Opinions.

[Wrex]

16 hours ago, Brian Johnson said:

He's the Craig Revel Horwood of the Vale world

In this analogy Nathan Smith is Tony Adams, so it's a perfect fit

[Wrex]

9 hours ago, The_godfather said:

The main reason is rotation. Different positions week to week, different partners week to week at the back, in the middle, up front - how can you develop consistency by developing those close relationships you need? Why are Arsenal suddenly top of the Premier League? A couple of class additions to tip them over the edge, on top of a core group that have played 50+ games together now.

And how won the Premier League last year and probably will this season? Manchester City with Pep roulette.

Thing is we don't have the budget to have a big squad of quality League One players. So a more realistic option would be to have a core eleven of good players who play every week.

But that's not what Clarke is about. So let's just keep the faith

[Vale1995]

4 hours ago, Vale Ball said:

21 hours ago, Vale1995 said:

Its starting to grate on me now sprouting nonsense to a large amount of vale fans.

Oh dear.....Opinions Opinions Opinions.

I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but when your putting yourself out there and promoting your opinion i think you cant just talk nonsense and not expect to be called up on it. Ive listened to the pod pretty much since it started and have enjoyed it on the whole. But feel like one of the fans on there is becoming miles of it and it's dangerous projecting in accurate views to a large % of vale fans. Anyone who watched the game couldnt argue that not many showed up on saturday but to blame a player who clearly isnt at fault for 3 goals and make him a scapegoat for the loss to fit your agenda that you dont think is good enough when in fact he is one of our better players is not on. I have rarely seen them give any player a rating of a 2 before and there have been a lot of bad performances from from players in a vale shirt since they have started the pod. They also at the start up the pod clarified that they were going  off saturdays performance only on the ratings but then on their favourites didnt mark them down anywhere near as smith because 'theyve got credit in the bank' from the other games. 

[Wrex]

1 hour ago, Vale1995 said:

I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but when your putting yourself out there and promoting your opinion i think you cant just talk nonsense and not expect to be called up on it. Ive listened to the pod pretty much since it started and have enjoyed it on the whole. But feel like one of the fans on there is becoming miles of it and it's dangerous projecting in accurate views to a large % of vale fans. Anyone who watched the game couldnt argue that not many showed up on saturday but to blame a player who clearly isnt at fault for 3 goals and make him a scapegoat for the loss to fit your agenda that you dont think is good enough when in fact he is one of our better players is not on. I have rarely seen them give any player a rating of a 2 before and there have been a lot of bad performances from from players in a vale shirt since they have started the pod. They also at the start up the pod clarified that they were going  off saturdays performance only on the ratings but then on their favourites didnt mark them down anywhere near as smith because 'theyve got credit in the bank' from the other games. 

Maybe I wasn't paying as much attention as you were but I don't remember any of that. Just remember it being said that Smith had a bad game and Johnny repeated his point that he didn't think Smith was good enough for this level. Think it's accepted that he's got a fringe view on this topic.

[PV1973]

On 16/11/2022 at 12:22, Vale1995 said:

I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but when your putting yourself out there and promoting your opinion i think you cant just talk nonsense and not expect to be called up on it. Ive listened to the pod pretty much since it started and have enjoyed it on the whole. But feel like one of the fans on there is becoming miles of it and it's dangerous projecting in accurate views to a large % of vale fans. Anyone who watched the game couldnt argue that not many showed up on saturday but to blame a player who clearly isnt at fault for 3 goals and make him a scapegoat for the loss to fit your agenda that you dont think is good enough when in fact he is one of our better players is not on. I have rarely seen them give any player a rating of a 2 before and there have been a lot of bad performances from from players in a vale shirt since they have started the pod. They also at the start up the pod clarified that they were going  off saturdays performance only on the ratings but then on their favourites didnt mark them down anywhere near as smith because 'theyve got credit in the bank' from the other games. 

A 2 indicates an absolute shocker of performance. To me that’s a score from a Zak Joules or a Benning at Walsall last season. 

[philmpv]

A 2 indicates an absolute shocker of performance. To me that’s a score from a Zak Joules or a Benning at Walsall last season. 

That would be a good score for Zak Joules. Zac Mills would have to have improved 10x from what saw of him to reach a 2

[Rampant Zebra]

23 minutes ago, philmpv said:

30 minutes ago, PV1973 said:

A 2 indicates an absolute shocker of performance. To me that’s a score from a Zak Joules or a Benning at Walsall last season. 

That would be a good score for Zak Joules. Zac Mills would have to have improved 10x from what saw of him to reach a 2

Is that the Zac Jules who has made 49 league 1 starts since he left us? 

[philmpv]

Is that the Zac Jules who has made 49 league 1 starts since he left us? 

Correct. You know that DC you don't rate? Is that the one with 5 promotions under his belt including one last season? Can see the argument you're trying to start but if you're seriously going down that line of argument you've made your disdain at all things DC look very silly indeed

[Bald Eagle]

9 minutes ago, Rampant Zebra said:

Is that the Zac Jules who has made 49 league 1 starts since he left us? 

That’s right - after the intervention of our very own DC getting him back on track at Walsall.  Glad you have finally acknowledged what a good manager he is - blind hatred cannot overcome facts

[toyahw]

Johnny hates Smithy, fair enough. But would be nice to get the facts straight before slagging someone off. It's his living mate. Not a vintage Smithy but still best of our defenders.  

The podcast has become a bit strange.  Ranting at certain players, giving others a free pass. Very odd. Anyway they banned me. 

[philmpv]

The podcast has become a bit strange.  Ranting at certain players, giving others a free pass. Very odd. Anyway they banned me. 

It's no different than on here much of the time. Players like Conlon, Smith and Worrall often get free passes from most on past glories. Jones, on the other hand, is always the culprit for something or other, no matter how well he plays. Par for the course

[Hoppers]

1 hour ago, Rampant Zebra said:

Is that the Zac Jules who has made 49 league 1 starts since he left us?