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But is ‘turning things around’ enough? Carol needs a manager to progress us on the field, add some excitement to our play and put bums on seats. Will Askey ever do any of that?

Askey came in an steadied the ship, but now we need the ship to start ploughing forward.
Probably not, the priority was stability. Last season we did better than expected, which raised everyone's hopes. Whether we finish in the POs or not could we survive in L1 without a massive re-build? It is not lack of ambition but realism of the time we live in with limited income into the club. As with life at present maybe we have to stand still and hope for the best and write a year off.
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Thought I’d start this thread so it doesn’t get lost in the match threads. Some of our fan base this season has been an embarrassment, calling for Askey to be sacked. We need to take a step back,

Bollox. If you mean 80/90% of posts, you may be close to the mark, but the vast majority of those posts were made by the same half dozen who pop up vociferously whenever we lose. You've fallen into th

I think that the counter attacking way in which we play is probably more to do with the last few seasons performance rather than the way the manager wants to play. We are not in a mid table existence.

10 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:
30 minutes ago, Vital Spark said:

But is ‘turning things around’ enough? Carol needs a manager to progress us on the field, add some excitement to our play and put bums on seats. Will Askey ever do any of that?

Askey came in an steadied the ship, but now we need the ship to start ploughing forward.

Probably not, the priority was stability. Last season we did better than expected, which raised everyone's hopes. Whether we finish in the POs or not could we survive in L1 without a massive re-build? It is not lack of ambition but realism of the time we live in with limited income into the club. As with life at present maybe we have to stand still and hope for the best and write a year off.

A very balanced view.  Unfortunately hopes were too high for the vast majority to accept your last sentence. From my own point of view, I believe it’s far too soon to go writing the season off.  Clearly some kind of change is required, manager, tactics, players, lucky pants, add your own.

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10 hours ago, Santa said:

I watching Clark and trying to work out what his job was today. He seemed to be under orders to play a bit further forward and leave the left winger Brophy for someone else to close down.

I don’t think that was an instruction. There is no one else to look after him unless you pull Legge out of position which then pulls the whole back 4 across. 

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15 hours ago, Guitar Ray said:

Fair enough Joe but the “inherent, endemic issues” you mention here didn’t appear to be evident at the end of last season, when everyone thought we’d finish in the playoffs had the season continued, and had enough quality to push on this season.

You haven’t spent 19 months moaning.  We haven’t spent 19 months huffing and puffing, creating nothing, and defending this badly.  I seem to recall everyone was satisfied until our recent woes, other than the premature conclusion to last season robbing us of our rightful place in the playoff positions, fully anticipated by the way we were finishing the season.

The problems of this season stem from the delusion that our players were better than they actually are in my opinion.  Also the management and owners probably bought into this notion to some degree, and this combined with the COVID situation, likely influenced our recruitment.  Unfortunately, and in hindsight, this season the chickens have come home to roost.  We still don’t score enough, but now our reliable defending has been called into question and we’re conceding very poor goals.  You can throw in the disruption of injuries and isolations.

Whoever is the manager will have to add a better player or 2 in January and hope whoever comes in makes a difference.

Askey sounds under massive pressure in interview today.  So time will tell I guess.

 

Ah, so there isn't a long term issue of John Askey's Port Vale conceding late goals? I must have been imagining Salford, Scunthorpe, Mansfield, Orient, Macclesfield, Tranmere, Kings Lynn, Newport, and yesterday then!

Clearly not an inherent issue that has existed for over 12 months without a sign of being rectified, despite it occurring at a much higher rate than any other side at this level.

I was saying much earlier in the season that we weren't playing quite as well as many thought and we needed to improve before things turned sour. We were being bailed out by a good keeper who was performing at a level he would, in about 10 games time, stop performing at, as League 2 goalkeepers simply can't sustain the level Brown was at for an entire season.

Was told to shut up as we were winning/drawing games and were in the top 7, so therefore I must be wrong. The League Table never lies. I wasn't satisfied as I thought we looked toothless against Harrogate, and thought Morecambe was a clear sign we were sub-par, but alas, we'd nicked a win against Cheltenham and Exeter, and you can't have concerns about a performance if you win games, so once again I was told to keep schtum.

In the summer I called for the signing of a number 10, as I felt we lacked creativity through the middle last season and were awfully reliant on Dave Worrall for open-play creativity. I felt, and I know he didn't play after January, that Jake Taylor's goals were fundamental to a side who lacked an open play goal threat pre-Christmas (sound familiar?), and different players would need to step up at different times of the season, due to the inconsistencies of League 2 players. 

I also wrote an article on my blog months ago calling for a restructuring of our recruitment system as it is clearly inadequate. 

So, Guitar Ray, I have been pointing out these 'endemic, inherent issues' for a long time. What we're seeing now is those issues biting us in the backside.

You seem to be in the mindset that Vale fans criticising things are only doing so because of results and they're impatient/fickle, and not because some of the issues they've been pointing out for a while are rearing their head. If that is the case, it's a very patronising and sanctimonious view to suppose you can see the real long-term pictures, and the average fan is taken in the wind by the result, unable to see the performances as they are blinded by the Wins and Losses column.

Edited by Joe B
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10 hours ago, soothsayer said:

Personally I still think it’s too early to consider changing the Manager however, Askey has got to turn around this current run of form. If we go another 3/4 games without winning I may change my mind. Failing to score regularly and not keeping clean sheets is not a recipe for success.

We will be in the bottom 2 by that time. Surely 6 defeats in a row is enough to change the manager. Especially given the level of performances 

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6 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Ah, so there isn't a long term issue of John Askey's Port Vale conceding late goals? I must have been imagining Salford, Scunthorpe, Mansfield, Orient, Macclesfield, Tranmere, Kings Lynn, Newport, and yesterday then!

Clearly not an inherent issue that has existed for over 12 months without a sign of being rectified, despite it occurring at a much higher rate than any other side at this level.

I was saying much earlier in the season that we weren't playing quite as well as many thought and we needed to improve before things turned sour. We were being bailed out by a good keeper who was performing at a level he would, in about 10 games time, stop performing at, as League 2 goalkeepers simply can't sustain the level Brown was at for an entire season.

Was told to shut up as we were winning/drawing games and were in the top 7, so therefore I must be wrong. The League Table never lies. I wasn't satisfied as I thought we looked toothless against Harrogate, and thought Morecambe was a clear sign we were sub-par, but alas, we'd nicked a win against Cheltenham and Exeter, and you can't have concerns about a performance if you win games, so once again I was told to keep schtum.

In the summer I called for the signing of a number 10, as I felt we lacked creativity through the middle last season and were awfully reliant on Dave Worrall for open-play creativity. I felt, and I know he didn't play after January, that Jake Taylor's goals were fundamental to a side who lacked an open play goal threat pre-Christmas (sound familiar?), and different players would need to step up at different times of the season, due to the inconsistencies of League 2 players. 

I also wrote an article on my blog months ago calling for a restructuring of our recruitment system as it is clearly inadequate. 

So, Guitar Ray, I have been pointing out these 'endemic, inherent issues' for a long time. What we're seeing now is those issues biting us in the backside. If you've convinced yourself that the fanbases' concern has only arisen in the last 6 games, as Vale fans are too unintelligent/impatient/fickle to pick out that sometimes you can win a number of games without deserving to, and eventually things will even out and you'll start losing games, then you're being fairly patronising.

You've talked yourself into the position where 'Vale fans don't like losses, and like wins, and they are incapable of seeing that wins can be ill-deserved and losses can be bad luck'. It's not a great look, matey!

Spot on 

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We are definitely approaching a crossroads. There’s some tough looking games coming up and we could be heading into a very busy Xmas period in a bad place, the table is closing up on us and even teams who made horrendous starts e.g. Oldham are closing up on us.

As I say, this has a relegation feel and the positivity of the close Season seems light years away at the moment.

I don’t know whether it is players causing issues or not. But I’ve heard whisperings that a couple of our distinctly underwhelming summer signings were made on the recommendation of someone other than Askey who has the ear of the decision makers.

This might just be heresay and complete fabrication. But I sincerely hope the new regime isn’t falling into the same traps as the old one.

Irrespective, we’ve got to address this slump as quickly as possible and whether he wants some of the players or not needs to find a way of getting a tune out of them so when an at least get another 31 points on the board, which at the moment feels a tall ask.

I think, with Amoo likely to be out, and given Monty’s brilliant cameo yesterday (he is the one shining light in our team for me), he gives McKirdy a run of games as a 10 alongside Cullen or Robinson, and we go to a back three with Crookes. The defence is clearly less than watertight atm, and Monty and Clark are better attacking from deep. 

Assuming Joyce is a shoe-in and Manny stays fit and plays more advanced, there is competition then between Conlon, Worrall (yes he could have to make way) and Burgess who seems to play better without Conlon.

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50 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

We will be in the bottom 2 by that time. Surely 6 defeats in a row is enough to change the manager. Especially given the level of performances 

If we lost all our next three games we won’t be in the bottom two - there aren’t averaging even a point a game. Whilst I thought we played ok in the second half yesterday. The problem yesterday was abject defending. Smith and Legge were poor and Clark kept going AWOL. Fitzpatrick was our best defender yesterday and he got subbed off and the goal came from where he may have been! 
I do agree with you on one point, time is running out and things cannot continue as they are.

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2 hours ago, darren1810 said:

Totally agree, possible 8500-10'000 v Crewe, others on Saturdays could of maybe been 6500 plus big away followings. We were on a crest of a wave then, just feel in the current climate so many people are out of the habit ( not just football ) that to be enticed back there has to be something at the end of the rainbow. 

If it's all one big faff which will be understandable only the diehards will go. For Vale to prosper we also have to have the product on the pitch as well as off it. 

Very true and the economic downturn will have a massive effect. If you think how much of an effect the closing down of the Pottery firms had on the club I see it being the same if not worse. The entrance fee then probably equated to an hour to an hour and half's salary. So without the product on the pitch and the entrance fee being £20+, I think we’d struggle to get 3,500 through the gates. However the way things are going it’s unlikely we’ll have any attendances this season without social distancing.

I think even EPL fans will find something different to do with their £50 entrance fees and your right human behaviour will change, I think the hospitality industry may never recover.

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18 hours ago, geoff1 said:

askey doing himself no favours his comments are worrying, never mind them coming in on monday, id have them in tomorrow! theyre dropping like a stone. luck alone isnt going to get them out of this mess.🥴😡

To me, we have the look of a team that has lost it's way. Teams normally struggling or who have inherent internal problems with players start underperforming and conceding goals of the nature we now do.

For me this is certainly not bad luck or "annything that can go wrong is going wrong".

Effort alone is a given, quality is poor, lack of attacking options are apparent and I'll say it again that Tome Pope is still our leading striker.

There are many issues and it is reported that there may be issues with a few 'bad eggs' so to speak.

Normally there is only one end result here sadly  and that will be a change of manager probably within the next month or so.

Recruitment is the key issue imo and I, like many other Vale fans have been carried on the wave of positivity instilled by all at Port Vale, particularly Carol and Kevin. In reality we will all be hurting, tough times ahead on the good ship Port Vale.

It's not rocket science to predict that a team that can't score but is conceding poor and many goals is heading for trouble - big trouble.

Sort it out

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4 hours ago, Joe B said:

Ah, so there isn't a long term issue of John Askey's Port Vale conceding late goals? I must have been imagining Salford, Scunthorpe, Mansfield, Orient, Macclesfield, Tranmere, Kings Lynn, Newport, and yesterday then!

Clearly not an inherent issue that has existed for over 12 months without a sign of being rectified, despite it occurring at a much higher rate than any other side at this level.

I was saying much earlier in the season that we weren't playing quite as well as many thought and we needed to improve before things turned sour. We were being bailed out by a good keeper who was performing at a level he would, in about 10 games time, stop performing at, as League 2 goalkeepers simply can't sustain the level Brown was at for an entire season.

Was told to shut up as we were winning/drawing games and were in the top 7, so therefore I must be wrong. The League Table never lies. I wasn't satisfied as I thought we looked toothless against Harrogate, and thought Morecambe was a clear sign we were sub-par, but alas, we'd nicked a win against Cheltenham and Exeter, and you can't have concerns about a performance if you win games, so once again I was told to keep schtum.

In the summer I called for the signing of a number 10, as I felt we lacked creativity through the middle last season and were awfully reliant on Dave Worrall for open-play creativity. I felt, and I know he didn't play after January, that Jake Taylor's goals were fundamental to a side who lacked an open play goal threat pre-Christmas (sound familiar?), and different players would need to step up at different times of the season, due to the inconsistencies of League 2 players. 

I also wrote an article on my blog months ago calling for a restructuring of our recruitment system as it is clearly inadequate. 

So, Guitar Ray, I have been pointing out these 'endemic, inherent issues' for a long time. What we're seeing now is those issues biting us in the backside.

You seem to be in the mindset that Vale fans criticising things are only doing so because of results and they're impatient/fickle, and not because some of the issues they've been pointing out for a while are rearing their head. If that is the case, it's a very patronising and sanctimonious view to suppose you can see the real long-term pictures, and the average fan is taken in the wind by the result, unable to see the performances as they are blinded by the Wins and Losses column.

Hope you didn’t take my comments personally Joe.  I think you’re somewhat preaching to the converted regarding the recruitment, however, in general, “average fans”, myself included, whilst identifying the issues, were happy to accept them last season based on our league position, which was, you’ll agree, unexpectedly high.  We ARE actually somewhat blinded by the Wins and Losses column.  Disagree if you like but there would be no mention of Askeys position if we were sitting in third place in the table but playing poorly.  Fact.

Over the closed season, we all had our ideas about recruitment and a fair few negative comments were made, but we entered the season with great expectations from the vast majority of the fan base.  We beat a fancied Exeter and were “world beaters”.  You clearly still had grave misgivings, and posted these on your blog, which I must admit to never reading.

Hopefully I’ve clarified my “mindset” above.  I think we’re all a bit more impatient this year as our expectations were much higher than in recent seasons. I can’t claim to see into the future hence my cautious approach to changing the manager right now.

I would add that someone who has such a high regard of their opinions that they blog the stuff is the last person to be throwing the words “patronising” and “sanctimonious” at the members of an open forum.  Good luck with your blog all the same.

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1 hour ago, Guitar Ray said:

Hope you didn’t take my comments personally Joe.  I think you’re somewhat preaching to the converted regarding the recruitment, however, in general, “average fans”, myself included, whilst identifying the issues, were happy to accept them last season based on our league position, which was, you’ll agree, unexpectedly high.  We ARE actually somewhat blinded by the Wins and Losses column.  Disagree if you like but there would be no mention of Askeys position if we were sitting in third place in the table but playing poorly.  Fact.

Over the closed season, we all had our ideas about recruitment and a fair few negative comments were made, but we entered the season with great expectations from the vast majority of the fan base.  We beat a fancied Exeter and were “world beaters”.  You clearly still had grave misgivings, and posted these on your blog, which I must admit to never reading.

Hopefully I’ve clarified my “mindset” above.  I think we’re all a bit more impatient this year as our expectations were much higher than in recent seasons. I can’t claim to see into the future hence my cautious approach to changing the manager right now.

I would add that someone who has such a high regard of their opinions that they blog the stuff is the last person to be throwing the words “patronising” and “sanctimonious” at the members of an open forum.  Good luck with your blog all the same.

So sharing your opinions on a blog is patronising and sanctimonious? And not just a nice side-hobby to have? I have no real view on how great my opinions on, it's just something I genuinely enjoy to do in my spare time.

I like to write. It's a hobby. I write about Port Vale, as social media restricts characters and no-one on here wants to read several thousand words of my drivel on every thread, so I put it on a website in case anyone's daft enough to read. I've only ever once posted a link to it on here, and I don't advertise it, so it's hardly an ego trip of preaching my excellent opinions to the masses. I post one link per article on my twitter and am grateful if one Vale fan finds the time to skim-read it. The fact I don't mention it, and post separately on here, should be evidence that it's no 'listen to me, oh feeble masses'.

But sound mate, thanks for your input. Sound very well-adjusted. I'll shut it down, lest I get too big of a head when 6 people read my next piece.

Edited by Joe B
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2 minutes ago, sunny boslem said:

I enjoy reading your thoughts joe 

Cheers mate!

Am well aware I clog these forums up with reams and reams of rubbish when a couple of sentences would suffice but I get carried away!

Edited by Joe B
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2 hours ago, Joe B said:

Cheers mate!

Am well aware I clog these forums up with reams and reams of rubbish when a couple of sentences would suffice but I get carried away!

Thoroughly enjoy reading your blog Joe, keep up the good work, interesting and sometimes illuminating work.

 

Edited by blackdog
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I wouldn't know a blog from a frog, but I really enjoy reading everyone's thoughts here. I've only been a member of OVF for a month, but feel privileged to be in the company of Greats whose words I've been reading for ages. Of course, we'll agree and disagree with each other in similar measure, that makes it all the more interesting. I've certainly had my mind opened up to theories and ideas I might not have considered otherwise. At the end of the day we're Vale. Keep on Joe B, keep on Guitar Ray.

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