Brexit again...

[Guest TommyMac]

A second referendum in any shape or form will not heal the divide this nation is in. The losers will not accept the result and why should they when the original result was never accepted. In fact why should the result of any vote ever be accepted again.

MP's have to take full responsibility for what has happened and what is to come.

If Parliament cannot vote a deal through and no deal can't get voted through either then Article 50 should be revoked and MP's then face the consequences.

[mr.hobblesworth]

JC will harvest votes from the poorest 25% but that's not enough to win a GE. To do so you have to win the centre ground and those crucial marginal seats in the Midlands and south where most folk are moderate, middle of the road voters.

 

 

You don't have to move to the centre to do that and I disagree that "most people are moderate..." Most people who usually vote may be moderate but only between 60% and 70% of the electorate bother. Getting the other 1/3 out is key. The youth turnout at the last general election was the highest in 25 years, largely IMO because Corbyn's/ Labour's manifesto enthused them so. Labour got over 40% of the vote at the last election, their highest share in years, much higher then Kinnock & Foot but also higher than Brown and Milliband. Ideally, we'd have been building on that over the last couple of years, persuading people and fighting this vile poxy government but Brexit.

 

this is an interesting article https://www.ft.com/content/6734cdde-550b-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f

[mr.hobblesworth]

A second referendum in any shape or form will not heal the divide this nation is in. The losers will not accept the result and why should they when the original result was never accepted. In fact why should the result of any vote ever be accepted again.

MP's have to take full responsibility for what has happened and what is to come.

If Parliament cannot vote a deal through and no deal can't get voted through either then Article 50 should be revoked and MP's then face the consequences.

 

So would you prefer revocation of Article 50 to a second referendum, even if it had No Deal as an option? If there was a 2nd referendum and leave won, I don't think the remainers could complain one iota. Even as a remainer, I occasionally think the best option would be a 2nd vote and for leave to win.

[TheSage]

You don't have to move to the centre to do that and I disagree that "most people are moderate..." Most people who usually vote may be moderate but only between 60% and 70% of the electorate bother. Getting the other 1/3 out is key. The youth turnout at the last general election was the highest in 25 years, largely IMO because Corbyn's/ Labour's manifesto enthused them so. Labour got over 40% of the vote at the last election, their highest share in years, much higher then Kinnock & Foot but also higher than Brown and Milliband. Ideally, we'd have been building on that over the last couple of years, persuading people and fighting this vile poxy government but Brexit.

 

this is an interesting article https://www.ft.com/content/6734cdde-550b-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f

 

You make some good points and I think everyone was surprised how well JC did.

But I don't think Labour has built on that, the SNP are dominating north of the border and May's campaign was truly appalling and the Tories wont get caught out again with such a lack-lustre effort. Changing their leader - as they did after Thatcher - might just be enough for them to get back in.

 

Labour has a chance but perhaps more realistically with a centre left alliance of Greens, SNP & Liberals, though the price the SNP would want might be high.

[Paul6754]

So would you prefer revocation of Article 50 to a second referendum, even if it had No Deal as an option? If there was a 2nd referendum and leave won, I don't think the remainers could complain one iota. Even as a remainer, I occasionally think the best option would be a 2nd vote and for leave to win.

 

Exactly and why I consider a 2nd referendum is the way forward (No deal, May's deal or something like it and remain on the ballot paper). If Leave won again then so be it then the UK gets behind the result. Given some of the recent indicators that more people are in favor of Remain it makes sense to hold a 2nd Referendum.

[Heatwave]

You make some good points and I think everyone was surprised how well JC did.

But I don't think Labour has built on that, the SNP are dominating north of the border and May's campaign was truly appalling and the Tories wont get caught out again with such a lack-lustre effort. Changing their leader - as they did after Thatcher - might just be enough for them to get back in.

 

Labour has a chance but perhaps more realistically with a centre left alliance of Greens, SNP & Liberals, though the price the SNP would want might be high.

 

The question is going to be money and who has enough of it to run an election campaign. The Tory Party chief executive is having to dig into his own pocket to fund their shortfall and I doubt he'd have enough to fund an election campaign as well. Labour might do better but Farage will just get his funding from Russia as usual.

[mr.hobblesworth]

If it's after Brexit though...

 

Labour have Momentum too. In the run up to the last election, tehy did so many good, positive things for the party. Just sending activists out to universities and making sure that students were registered to vote. A friend did this in Newcastle (the other one, near Sunderland) and got over 90% of the kids there signed up. Even my local pub had sessions where they were offering a free pint to everyone who registered to vote! Things like that can make such a huge difference IF you can then offer the electorate something they can believe in.

[JohnJames]

Sorry. Your (pl) analogy is getting a little stretched.

 

I’d go further it’s complete ********

[geosname]

I don't care much who wins an election.

 

Provided there is a strong opposition to keep them in check.

[geosname]

I’d go further it’s complete ********

 

Comparing brexit to a house purchase is so any comparison as a counter argument will also be.

I understand what fosse was getting at and simply stated why it's not that simple.

Using the same example it could be argued that only 2 elements of the contract had been evident so the contract had not been completed... i.e. there had been no consideration (payment)..... there has been no brexit.

The analogy was based on contract law, my counter argument was also based on contract law using the same elements in the example.

[tommytunstall]

That is the problem Labour have Momentum!!

If it's after Brexit though...

 

Labour have Momentum too. In the run up to the last election, tehy did so many good, positive things for the party. Just sending activists out to universities and making sure that students were registered to vote. A friend did this in Newcastle (the other one, near Sunderland) and got over 90% of the kids there signed up. Even my local pub had sessions where they were offering a free pint to everyone who registered to vote! Things like that can make such a huge difference IF you can then offer the electorate something they can believe in.

[Guest TommyMac]

Exactly and why I consider a 2nd referendum is the way forward (No deal, May's deal or something like it and remain on the ballot paper). If Leave won again then so be it then the UK gets behind the result. Given some of the recent indicators that more people are in favor of Remain it makes sense to hold a 2nd Referendum.

 

So if the majority vote to remain in a second vote do you expect that to unite the country? I also refuse to believe remain voters and MP's would accept a second leave vote.

Finally, if May's deal, no deal and remain are on the ballot paper you split the leave vote. You don't want to take any chances do you?

[mr.hobblesworth]

So if the majority vote to remain in a second vote do you expect that to unite the country? I also refuse to believe remain voters and MP's would accept a second leave vote.

Finally, if May's deal, no deal and remain are on the ballot paper you split the leave vote. You don't want to take any chances do you?

 

I'd presume there could be 2 ballot papers, leave y/n and no deal/ deal.

[mr.hobblesworth]

That is the problem Labour have Momentum!!

 

Why is that a problem? Have you been to any Momentum meetings or spoke with people in the organisation? They're (generally) genuinely decent people. I don't know where this reputation for being 'hard-left' boot boys has come from. In fact, when the last leadership challenge from Owen Smith was taking place, they vowed to get behind whoever was chosen as leader. They do so much campaigning and co-ordinating and, IMO, they made a real difference at the last election.

[For Us All]

what about the expensives scandal a few cases dealt with inhouse, and it still goes on... the sex abuse scandal still going on... pay awards awarded to them selves...

 

a great pity guy fawkes didn't succeed...

 

Biased Bercow has been at it again.