Is Browny tactically naive ?

[raywalkersbananakick]

After the 1st 2 games and backend of last season has Brown got the tactical nous to get us out of L2 ⚽️

 

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[SuperValiant1876]

Certainly seems that way!

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Twist it on its head...any examples where he has shown tactical nous?

[alwaysvaleme]

Could be but jury's out for a few more games I reckon

 

 

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[TheSage]

It's an interesting debate but perhaps a bit early in the campaign to be over critical.

 

Last season I think he was hampered by injuries and not having an energetic squad, which meant on occasions playing an extra midfielder to protect the team, leaving us with one isolated striker. Our full backs were quite poor as well and that might have been a further consideration - to try and protect them, especially away from home.

 

He professes to favour a team on the front foot and I guess 4.4.2 would be his preferred option but we never seem to have the right players, all fit, who can play this way.

Harness seems not to offer much defensively. Wilson has been poor. We've only just, after all summer, got a left back. And we have a couple of oldies in central midfield.

We still miss the energy of a lad like Guy and the quality on the ball of an Eagles or a Dodds.

I don't think the balance of the team is right and it really should be by now.

But let's hold fire and see where we are after ten league games when the pattern for the season is clearer.

 

Blimey, with all his experience and that of Kelly and Morgan, they should know a thing or two about tactics, along with Kay, Pugh, Pope etc so there can't be any shortage of knowledge I wouldn't have thought.

[smithie]

I'd like to know how many managers achieve a promotion in their first full season in charge - I'm guessing very few.

 

Browny can only gain experience by learning and making mistakes along the way, just like in any other job. The problem is, we don't really have the time to spare to let him have 3/4 seasons learning his trade.

 

Having said that, I hope no-one doubts his efforts and commitment to the job. I doubt he needs the money but he's clearly a grafter - and not all managers would engage with the fans with initiatives like the pub tour and the Fans Forum nights. He deserves a full season in my mind. If he can get us straight up then that would be a top job done.

[rayzer]

I'd like to know how many managers achieve a promotion in their first full season in charge - I'm guessing very few.

 

Browny can only gain experience by learning and making mistakes along the way, just like in any other job. The problem is, we don't really have the time to spare to let him have 3/4 seasons learning his trade.

 

Having said that, I hope no-one doubts his efforts and commitment to the job. I doubt he needs the money but he's clearly a grafter - and not all managers would engage with the fans with initiatives like the pub tour and the Fans Forum nights. He deserves a full season in my mind. If he can get us straight up then that would be a top job done.

 

Why don't we have time to spare to let him have 3/4 seasons learning his trade?

 

In my opinion he has this season to show if he can hack it as a manager with his signings and if he can learn how to change games tactically.

 

The Vale have been in existence since 1876 and will be going for a long time (hopefully without Scumthwaite)and I for one would love to see a manager given time to be able to have a long term vision and give us stability to enable him to achieve his goals which would be the same as our goals for the club I am sure. Giving Rudgie time did not do too badly did it?

[jjvale_03]

My over-riding feeling is that he can set a team up (not always correctly as Saturday showed) but is severely lacking in the ability to think on his feet during the match. It took him far too long to respond to changes in the match at Crawley (easily could've drawn or lost that game from a commanding position thanks to negative tactics) and again at Leeds, kept them quiet to begin with but didn't have the tactical know-how to stop them eventually over running us.

 

And there's no getting away from the fact that we scored once in 7 matches at the end of last season (and that was a screamer). I don't care about personnel, the man in charge has to take some flack for that. One goal in over 600 minutes of football when we're supposed to fighting to stay up was truly abysmal.

[Bert Llewellyn]

From the evidence to date the answer has to ne a resounding 'no' in my opinion. The biggest issue for me is that he seems to wait too long to alter the way a game is going either by waiting to make substitutions and not reacting tactally to what is happening on the pitch.

 

But hey what do I know!

[Bert Llewellyn]

From the evidence to date the answer has to ne a resounding 'no' in my opinion. The biggest issue for me is that he seems to wait too long to alter the way a game is going either by waiting to make substitutions and not reacting tactally to what is happening on the pitch.

 

But hey what do I know!

[Hagrid]

He is. Many tactical balls ups already. Saturday the latest in a long line (8 games, 1 goal at the back end of last year).

 

Its not just his set up; its his mid game alterations. I always rate a manager who isn't afraid to change things early doors. Brown didn't make a change until the 60th minute on Saturday.

 

Not saying he'll never be a decent manager, just that now he isn't very good. He may improve, but are we willing to one, take the risk that he won't, and two, wait out several seasons in League Two whilst he finds his feet.

 

Our last 3 managers have been been 'gambles' and we've been forced to accept fundamental flaws (Page's away form and negativity, Bruno's shambles, Brown's poor transfer and injury record) in the name of long-term improvement. I honestly don't think, with the attendances, atmosphere, and league position we can afford to wait 2-3 years.

 

Its very short-termism but we need success now, to start getting crowds back in. Persisting with Brown, waiting 3 seasons for him to learn when to make a sub, might push us even further back as a club.

 

edit: also beginning to doubt that Brown is getting unlucky with injuries. All of last season's injuries combined with this season's to Montano, Lainton, and Barnett already, with Wilson also looking unfit, suggests that its Brown training regime and lack of planning as opposed to freak chance.

[PV1973]

Browny can only gain experience by learning and making mistakes along the way, just like in any other job. The problem is, we don't really have the time to spare to let him have 3/4 seasons learning his trade.

I disagree, we do have the time. Its impatient fans that don't.

 

Its very short-termism but we need success now, to start getting crowds back in. Persisting with Brown, waiting 3 seasons for him to learn when to make a sub, might push us even further back as a club.

At what point do we give someone time then? Are we only willing to give an experienced manager time? Even if we got in a manager whos been there and done it we still have no guarantees that it will work straight away. Its clear that stability and success don't come by sacking managers and having new squads every season and thats whats happened for the last 2 seasons. We need to consolidate and build again with a clear vision for where the club is going. If that means not going up this season then so be it.

[Mattholl]

Why don't we have time to spare to let him have 3/4 seasons learning his trade?

 

In my opinion he has this season to show if he can hack it as a manager with his signings and if he can learn how to change games tactically.

 

The Vale have been in existence since 1876 and will be going for a long time (hopefully without Scumthwaite)and I for one would love to see a manager given time to be able to have a long term vision and give us stability to enable him to achieve his goals which would be the same as our goals for the club I am sure. Giving Rudgie time did not do too badly did it?

 

Lets look at this for what it is your proposing- right folks who wants to buy a season ticket to watch a manager bed in? its only going to take up 900-1200 of your money whilst watching some poor stuff to get it right hopefully...if he doesn't we will just give another manager 3 or 4 years to get it right at 1200 pounds of your cash too. Whos in?

 

Football is an entertainment business, people pay to be entertained by professionals. There is too much going in to allow anyone 3 or 4 years to maybe get it right. If you had someone who was trying something different in the conference and you have been there a few years then maybe you would give a manager a couple of years to build something. Lets be brutally honest we considering we went down last year we should have the budget and squad to be competitive for promotion in this league I don't think that unrealistic to say that. What is massively scary for me about Brown, Page and a host of other old school ex-pros is the total lack of acceptance of the modern game. Having done my B Licence along side a host of pros and ex-pros the way that coaches and managers are instructed to approach the game is completely different to the total dinosaur drivel that our last few managers spout on a day to day basis in the press and god forbid the dressing room.

 

The main worry for me before Brown had even managed one game was the massive focus on fitness, fitness, fitness. Straight away that would indicate that they are trying to instill their own mentality and work ethic to players. 22 players are not Michael brown, they are not all the same and dont all need to be cross country fit to be effective. Coming into the Vale job last year it was clear for all to see that the system we were playing wasn't suiting the personnel and that we were weak in some areas quality wise. If anyone genuinely thought the issue with what Bruno left behind was fitness then you should never have been offered the job at all.

 

As the weekend showed Brown thinks fit runners and old school experience are enough to get results...sadly this isnt 1985 anymore and it isnt. Managers even in league two are playing with systems, specific game plans for every game worked on for 2-3 days in training and designed to benefit the attributes of the squad. Its clear under Brown this isnt happening both last year and early this year. Ainsworth's setup against us was perfect in that they knew we would lump the ball to Pope at every opportunity and his strongest defender was man marking him to prevent him winning the ball, they knew that man v man in wide areas we would struggle and made sure to isolate the fullback 1v1 with Tyson and the other lad who scored whenever possible by them getting as high and wide at the first opportunity. They also know that Akinfenwa is deadly but inside the box not with his back to goal 35 yards out (like pope is used at the moment) so he was only brought into the play in and around the box where is can be effective, he also picked on Smith the smaller of our defenders and bullied him all game. Fitness and experience of playing wont stop game plans being effective against you, only having our own game plan (other than smashing the ball at Pope) give them a reason to change their game plan and stop them playing effectively.

 

At this point you are looking at changes during the game, straight away the minute Akinfenwa scores after 1 min why are we not telling Kay to pick him up (bigger, stronger, more experience)? We did nothing we allowed it to continue all game. When we can see they are pushing their wingers on why straight away are we not either getting ours to sit deep and stop balls coming through or pushing ours forward forcing their wingers back to help defend and prevent the full back from being overloaded? When we can see Pope isnt winning the battle against the centre half why are we not changing tac and getting the ball wide and crosses into the box? We didnt until 5 mins from the end when we started to get the ball wide and running at them. The answer??

 

Brown is tactically a dinosaur he thinks hard work and trying will get results...it wont anymore preparation and reacting to the game minute by minute will, thats game management. Look last year at how many times you could see a goal coming for the opposition and we did nothing to effect that at all. Southend away, Bristol Rovers at home are just two straight away I can think of instantly but there was probably 5-6 instances. Enough to keep us up and enough times to show hes not learning anything at all. All he does when it goes wrong is pick on individuals who he didnt think worked hard enough. The foreign lads last year a prime example, throwing players under the bus last year and this year already.

 

If you have someone who trying to do these things you stick with them, they are showing an understanding of needing to change to manage games and an need experience to get the decisions/changes right. Brown is just changing because he thinks players are tired. bring on fresh legs to do the same as the previous player was doing.... dinosaur

[Mark W]

He is. Many tactical balls ups already. Saturday the latest in a long line (8 games, 1 goal at the back end of last year).

 

Its not just his set up; its his mid game alterations. I always rate a manager who isn't afraid to change things early doors. Brown didn't make a change until the 60th minute on Saturday.

 

Not saying he'll never be a decent manager, just that now he isn't very good. He may improve, but are we willing to one, take the risk that he won't, and two, wait out several seasons in League Two whilst he finds his feet.

 

Our last 3 managers have been been 'gambles' and we've been forced to accept fundamental flaws (Page's away form and negativity, Bruno's shambles, Brown's poor transfer and injury record) in the name of long-term improvement. I honestly don't think, with the attendances, atmosphere, and league position we can afford to wait 2-3 years.

 

Its very short-termism but we need success now, to start getting crowds back in. Persisting with Brown, waiting 3 seasons for him to learn when to make a sub, might push us even further back as a club.

 

edit: also beginning to doubt that Brown is getting unlucky with injuries. All of last season's injuries combined with this season's to Montano, Lainton, and Barnett already, with Wilson also looking unfit, suggests that its Brown training regime and lack of planning as opposed to freak chance.

 

He was so quick to blame Bruno for injuries but they're somehow unlucky under him. Can't have it both ways.

 

We're paying for the ill-judged decision to hand him the job at Christmas and then again at the end of last season without considering other candidates. We should have gone through a proper application and interview process (which Brown could have been part of) and appointed the best man. Bruno would surely have taken us down but I don't accept that we were so bad no manager could have saved us after Boxing Day. We only needed two more points to stay up in the end - we blew 11 from winning positions under Brown.

 

What was so appalling about Chesterfield last season was not just the lack of tactics, but the lack of motivation. They were as garbage as us but just wanted it that bit more. We're massively owed on Saturday. My fear is the manager will set up a team not to lose, rather than win - and we'll lose again.

[darren1810]

Yes..simples