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14 hours ago, TJHValiant said:

Indeed but losing our promotion momentum after years of dismal efforts seems a crazy risk. 

Sadly we might have no choice in the matter and imo we could still keep our momentum going as any money will get spent(or the majority of it) unlike under the blue one

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14 hours ago, Joe B said:

I'm all for shutting the academy, as controversial as that is. Keeping it open is for sentiment and isn't going to help us any time soon. 

It feels nice to have a Smith/Gibbons come through but there's so much competition in the area from the big North-West teams, along with Crewe, Stoke, Derby, and Forest, that we're about 10-12th on the list of clubs for promising players. We're so far behind.

Flitters wants to improve it but we're talking years, potentially a decade, before we can even begin to compete, and even then there's no guarantee we can compete for players against Crewe or Derby, let alone Man City or Liverpool.

Shut it down and reinvest in a B team with a proper coaching set up and scouting team, to sign players undervalued by bigger clubs on 2 year deals. Train them in the style of the first team and if one hits (like Hugill did) then it's worth it. Worst case, you have a steady reserve team. 

We aren't going to climb the leagues by doing the same as everyone else, as they'll just do the same but with more money. Do something different imo. The sentimental obsession with 'academies' is hurting clubs. Football has changed. 

Surely you aren't serious about the Academy? it certainly wont take years to improve in fact it is already improving,the Academy is a massive part of Carols plans in taking the club forward,she has said that herself.

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4 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I am. 

Will take years to see tangible progress. You've got to firstly start recruiting better talent, which considering the competition in our area, is nearly impossible. Why would a good player come here if Crewe and Liverpool are after them, or Forest and United? Even if we start recruiting better 12 year olds, it's nearly a decade before they're playing regularly. Our existing crop will be here because the 10 better academies in the area didn't want them. If we have a good youth team player, and Stoke want him, or Crewe, or Man City, they're gone. 

We've produced only two first-team players in the decade and have recently been ranked as the 5th most unproductive academy in professional football. It takes years to build that up, and the gap is so large already that I question if its the most valuable use of resources. 

Think your way off the mark with this one. Of course it will take a number of years, but surely we should be planning for the future? That is what everyone has been requesting for years. I don’t get your point. The whole point of the academy is that when their around 20 they can move into the first team, this is the same for every club. Just because it takes a number of years why would we discard this? 

We would lose players to other clubs yes, as do all other academy’s, but there’s more than enough good young players knocking around that could go through the system at vale. 

IMO it’s probably the most important thing the club should invest in. Your last paragraph for me confirms that we need to invest in this and not just discard it. If it takes 10 years then it takes 10 years. Thankfully it seems something the club wish to invest in. Which makes perfect sense to me. 

Edited by valiant_593

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17 minutes ago, valefan16 said:

Two top end league two clubs have apparently put in a loan request to Bolton for Eion Doyle…

If we are one and pulled that one off we could probably start to get very very excited.

Has that been reported anywhere mate?

Personally i think if true one could be Tranmere

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3 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

Think your way off the mark with this one. Of course it will take a number of years, but surely we should be planning for the future? That is what everyone has been requesting for years. I don’t get your point. The whole point of the academy is that when their around 20 they can move into the first team, this is the same for every club. Just because it takes a number of years why would we discard this? 

We would lose players to other clubs yes, as do all other academy’s, but there’s more than enough good young players knocking around that could go through the system at vale. 

IMO it’s probably the most important thing the club should invest in. Your last paragraph for me confirms that we need to invest in this and not just discard it. If it takes 10 years then it takes 10 years. Thankfully it seems something the club wish to invest in. Which makes perfect sense to me. 

Totally agree,for many many years the Academy has been neglected and not had the investment in it,now we have owners who are committed to investing in our future and wants us to compete to get some of the best young talent to bring through and then hopefully sell on,that is the model they are working on and i like it... just to add that wont mean not investing in the first team either,Carol wants to see our club as sustainable and in the Championship

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9 hours ago, LancyTony said:

As much as I loathe Sjoke and Macari you can't deny the work he's done for Stoke's homeless has been very thoughtful and most welcome! I'd say he deserves this. Not quite as much as Rudgie, obviously - but don't begrudge the man!

i dont begrudge the man-good luck to him watching sir john picking up his gong!

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Well aware my view is in the minority and controversial.

I stand by that the discussion ought to be had as to whether investment in the academy at this point is best for us. I think there's an argument that it isn't, due to the way football is set up with EPPP and the disparity in wealth between us and the Category 1 academies. It's a Sisyphean task.

Ideally football is re-structured to incentivise clubs to build through the academies (I'd love us to have a good one), I just think the system is set up to reward Man City and to penalise Port Vale. I find it idealistic that we can compete in this region for good players and think a more certain ROI would be via boosting the first-team budget, achieve success, and then utilise our greater revenue + reputation to build the academy. Don't put the horse before the cart etc etc. The academy will benefit most by the first-teams success and the money and attention that brings.

As said, I know I am challenging on the most cherished notions in football so am quite happy to be disagreed with.

Edited by Joe B
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Well aware my view is in the minority and controversial.
I stand by that the discussion ought to be had as to whether investment in the academy at this point is best for us. I think there's an argument that it isn't, due to the way football is set up with EPPP and the disparity in wealth between us and the Category 1 academies. It's a Sisyphean task.
Ideally football is re-structured to incentivise clubs to build through the academies (I'd love us to have a good one), I just think the system is set up to reward Man City and to penalise Port Vale. I find it idealistic that we can compete in this region for good players and think a more certain ROI would be via boosting the first-team budget, achieve success, and then utilise our greater revenue + reputation to build the academy. Don't put the horse before the cart etc etc. The academy will benefit most by the first-teams success and the money and attention that brings.
As said, I know I am challenging on the most cherished notions in football so am quite happy to be disagreed with.

Carol believes in the academy route hence the investment to get us to the next academy status , the academy is very much part of both short and long term plans
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37 minutes ago, werstayinup said:

Would do a job i guess but does he fit with the remit now? how old is he 32/33?

I was thinking g about that myself.

Unless the thinking is that to get a young, saleable striker that’s any good in Jan costs twice as much as usual. 
 

Given we are wanting to lock people into longer contracts in order to increase the chance of selling players, would we want to lock in at that higher price.

Therefore a 6 month loan for someone who doesn’t have long term aspirations but knows where the net is… would make sense.

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19 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Well aware my view is in the minority and controversial.

I stand by that the discussion ought to be had as to whether investment in the academy at this point is best for us. I think there's an argument that it isn't, due to the way football is set up with EPPP and the disparity in wealth between us and the Category 1 academies. It's a Sisyphean task.

Ideally football is re-structured to incentivise clubs to build through the academies (I'd love us to have a good one), I just think the system is set up to reward Man City and to penalise Port Vale. I find it idealistic that we can compete in this region for good players and think a more certain ROI would be via boosting the first-team budget, achieve success, and then utilise our greater revenue + reputation to build the academy. Don't put the horse before the cart etc etc. The academy will benefit most by the first-teams success and the money and attention that brings.

As said, I know I am challenging on the most cherished notions in football so am quite happy to be disagreed with.

I can understand where you're coming from, I'm a bit on the fence personally.

I think we need to remember that just because a player doesn't get poached by Man City, he might still be a decent player for L2/L1 level.

But then I suppose if they're standing out at youth level, maybe someone from the Champ/L1 could still poach them!

On the other hand, why couldn't we go and poach players from youth teams below us? John Clarke (youth LB) was signed from Stockport Town and is playing well for us now - so maybe that's part of the plan.

I've been following the career of Luke Daley, who was a young left winger for our youth team that was poached by Huddersfield as a 16 year old. He's recently signed a pro deal until 2022 but I don't believe he's anywhere near the first team. They've moved him to left back too. He's 19 in January, but I often think if someone like that had stayed with us, maybe he'd be knocking on the door of the first team?

Carol's plan to create a pathway into the 1st team is a good one, as it will hopefully show young players they can create a career with us, rather than moving too early then ending up on the scrapheap.

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14 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Well aware my view is in the minority and controversial.

I stand by that the discussion ought to be had as to whether investment in the academy at this point is best for us. I think there's an argument that it isn't, due to the way football is set up with EPPP.

It absolutely is the right thing to do NOW. Yes bigger clubs and academies get the pick of lads but a lot of players fall through the cracks as they all develop and different stages.A club like ours is only sustainable at a higher level by building a better academy, proving a pathway to the 1st team. 

Our academy has not had a lot of success in terms of 1st team debuts but there a lot of boys, before making youth level ,where we have been compensated for them to join another club. This happens a lot more than reported.

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