Brexit again...

[geosname]

Labour lost less than UKIP but I don't see any headlines about that.

 

What headline would you like to see?

 

Labour loses less than UKIP?

 

Two parties riddled with racism fight it out..... Labour lose less?

 

This is the party of the underdog we are talking about...... Labour..... champion of the working class and poor...... even with the Tories getting slaughtered LOSE 80+.

 

I await the political scrambling to realign....... the official waffle...... and further inaction with platitudes....... and a cobbled deal to stop the European elections.

[mr.hobblesworth]

But that's not the 'news'. The losses at the local elections are reported as being on a par with each other whilst that's patently not the case. It's like Stoke losing 13-0 and Vale losing 1-0 and Radio Stoke saying ' both local teams have had a thrashing, Stoke lost 13-0 and Vale also got a good tonking'. It's not really a big deal and I don't expect anything other than disingenuous nonsense from practically the whole of the MSM when it comes to Corbyn's Labour but I do think that there's a lot of deflection going on. It's like your point that Labour didn't fair any better than the tories. Completely untrue.

 

As for

but you would expect Labour to gain some if not a huge amount

I don't think I would. Brexit is overshadowing absolutely everything, IMO. If there was a way that people could vote for parties whilst setting that issue aside, yes, I think Labour would be in a very healthy position. Unfortunately, the terrible state of the country isn't getting the coverage it deserves whilst Brexit drags on.

[mr.hobblesworth]

What headline would you like to see?

 

Labour loses less than UKIP?

 

Two parties riddled with racism fight it out..... Labour lose less?

 

This is the party of the underdog we are talking about...... Labour..... champion of the working class and poor...... even with the Tories getting slaughtered LOSE 80+.

 

I await the political scrambling to realign....... the official waffle...... and further inaction with platitudes....... and a cobbled deal to stop the European elections.

 

Labour isn't riddled with racism.

 

I would like a more nuanced and accurate reporting of the facts. Losing 80 seats is not disastrous at all. To lose 80 seats may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose nearly one and a half thousand looks like a hell of a clusterfuck. The two shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

[geosname]

But that's not the 'news'. The losses at the local elections are reported as being on a par with each other whilst that's patently not the case. It's like Stoke losing 13-0 and Vale losing 1-0 and Radio Stoke saying ' both local teams have had a thrashing, Stoke lost 13-0 and Vale also got a good tonking'. It's not really a big deal and I don't expect anything other than disingenuous nonsense from practically the whole of the MSM when it comes to Corbyn's Labour but I do think that there's a lot of deflection going on. It's like your point that Labour didn't fair any better than the tories. Completely untrue.

 

As for I don't think I would. Brexit is overshadowing absolutely everything, IMO. If there was a way that people could vote for parties whilst setting that issue aside, yes, I think Labour would be in a very healthy position. Unfortunately, the terrible state of the country isn't getting the coverage it deserves whilst Brexit drags on.

 

So..... set aside the biggest issue in decades that all parties have completely failed miserably on and Labour would do ok?

If that's the case let's set aside the fact Tories are crap....?. Does that mean they get a landslide?

 

Labour lost heavily in 2015..?.. four years on the Tories are destroying themselves and failing badly and Labour lose another 80+......... no gains at all..... no increase, no strides forward against the most symbolic party in recent history?

 

As for the football analogy...... let's look at it as a 2 leg competition.

First leg.

Tories 13 - 0 Labour .

Second leg.

Tories 0 - 0 Labour...... Tories had 7 red cards..... Labour missed 15 penalties.

Match summery...... both teams were crap.

 

Whatever you think of the Tories, and it can't be a lot, you should be shocked, as I am, Labour lost too.... it's a bloody disaster.

[geosname]

Labour isn't riddled with racism.

 

I would like a more nuanced and accurate reporting of the facts. Losing 80 seats is not disastrous at all. To lose 80 seats may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose nearly one and a half thousand looks like a hell of a clusterfuck. The two shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

 

Even with all the Tory losses they still have 1539 more than Labour.

Before the election......

Tories... 4896.

Labour... 2105.

After 4 years of the Tory party screwing itself.

Tories... 3562.

Labour... 2023.

 

If the public had faith in Labour it would have at least held it's own if not improved... that's the disaster..... no matter how you wave it away.

 

What both parties fail to realise is that the old enemy isn't the opposition any more..... it's the people... the ones who can take it all away from both parties.

[Andyregs]

Wonder where the Brexiteers faux outrage is regarding Claire Fox?

[Bycarsbill]

Labour isn't riddled with racism.

 

I would like a more nuanced and accurate reporting of the facts. Losing 80 seats is not disastrous at all. To lose 80 seats may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose nearly one and a half thousand looks like a hell of a clusterfuck. The two shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

 

Two points: If "labour isn't riddled with racism" try telling that to your Jewish Labour party MPs and members! Secondly; historically, an opposition party at this stage of any parliament would be counting the number of council seats it had picked up from the prevailing governing party, NOT counting how many it had LOST. You have to get it that both the Tories and Labour got a kicking from the electorate for not delivering Brexit. Conservatives for being seen to get the leave negotiations wrong and Labour for being totally obtuse all along (and continuing still)on its policies for leaving the EU. There are a lot more complex issues and background to this particular round of council elections than usual, so I wouldn't go crowing that Labour has done well!

[Bycarsbill]

Even with all the Tory losses they still have 1539 more than Labour.

Before the election......

Tories... 4896.

Labour... 2105.

After 4 years of the Tory party screwing itself.

Tories... 3562.

Labour... 2023.

 

If the public had faith in Labour it would have at least held it's own if not improved... that's the disaster..... no matter how you wave it away.

 

What both parties fail to realise is that the old enemy isn't the opposition any more..... it's the people... the ones who can take it all away from both parties.

 

Absolutely spot-on. Mr Hobblesworth is too blinded by an unrealistic loyalty to a stgruggling and divided labour party to see it! Despite all the Tory's self-inflicted wounds, Labour are making no headway at all and are open to assault on both flanks; from within Tom Watson and his remainer Labour followers and from outside by Ukip and the Brexit party who will suck away the working class "out" voting Labour electorate.

[For Us All]

Even Baldrick's given up on Jezza!!!

After 45 years Tony Robinson has finally had enough of the Labour Party saying " I have left because of its continued duplicity on Brexit,partly because of its antisemitism but also because it's leadership is complete s**t.

Sounds as though Jezza needs another cunning plan?🤣

[Regal Beagle]

Wonder where the Brexiteers faux outrage is regarding Claire Fox?

 

Faux outrage? Not sure what you mean by that.

 

Pretty weird thing to try and point score on but I dont put anything past the left currently.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that terrorism is wrong and that we disavow those who defend it? I'm glad we've been able to clear this up?

[Fosse69]

It was not a national vote, it was mainly in Tory areas, Libs did well but not as well as they did in their hay day with 40/50 MPs.

Could be that the next govt will be Lab/Lib/SNP with Anti-austerity the thread, Lab strength is the metros, Libs to grab seats in the rural areas. As for Brexit, parliament will never agree so the only way is a re-think and put it back to the people.

[Regal Beagle]

Labour isn't riddled with racism.

 

I would like a more nuanced and accurate reporting of the facts. Losing 80 seats is not disastrous at all. To lose 80 seats may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose nearly one and a half thousand looks like a hell of a clusterfuck. The two shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

 

Losing less seats than accepted or losing seats when you expect to make gains on your opposition?

 

You cant dress this one up. Labour are bang in trouble. Probably due to the huge problem with anti semitism that you are denying.

 

Dont you have a history of losing your head when you think people are denying racism?

 

Or just another example of it's ok if you agree with it?

[mr.hobblesworth]

Two points: If "labour isn't riddled with racism" try telling that to your Jewish Labour party MPs and members! Secondly; historically, an opposition party at this stage of any parliament would be counting the number of council seats it had picked up from the prevailing governing party, NOT counting how many it had LOST. You have to get it that both the Tories and Labour got a kicking from the electorate for not delivering Brexit. Conservatives for being seen to get the leave negotiations wrong and Labour for being totally obtuse all along (and continuing still)on its policies for leaving the EU. There are a lot more complex issues and background to this particular round of council elections than usual, so I wouldn't go crowing that Labour has done well!

 

I haven't once said Labour have done well. They didn't do well (although there were a couple of glimmers like Trafford, Calderdale etc) but my argument is that to state that their disappointing performance was on a par with the Tories' is untrue. As I said, it's not a huge issue for me and I think that council elections when everyone is so wrapped up in Brexit means that you can't draw any particularly significant meaning from this (which is why I've not been crowing about the tories' huge losses) but I don't think the 2 performances are comparable. It's also worth noting that not all councils were being elected; to be honest, I'm not sure how the election cycle works regarding councils but I do get the impression that you can't get a wholly accurate picture from the recent poll.

 

The bit I've put in bold isn't true*. Labour "got a kicking" for both not delivering Brexit and for not promising a second referendum. I appreciate how frustrating Labour's 'policy' is for many - Frankie Boyle likened it to astrology! - but it's difficult to know what a party whose membership is so overwhelmingly in favour of remaining should do when 'ver peepul hav spoke'. I personally feel that the recent policy came across as being to timid regarding a 2nd vote and that we'd have taken/ kept more of the Lib Dem/ Green votes if we had.

 

As for the racism bit, it probably deserves it's own thread. I accept that there is an issue in Labour, as there is in society, with anti-semitism but I don't believe that the party is "riddled with it. As people have consistently stated, even if all the complaints were upheld it still only means that a tiny proportion of Labour members hold these views. Many of the tweets and comments mentioned by the likes of Hodge weren't even from Labour Party members. I also believe that outrage regarding anti-semitism are finding it a handy peg on which to hang their hatred of Corbyn, like Tony Robinson who has been campaigning against him from the moment he was elected leader.

 

EDIT: * Just seen you mentioned this in your subsequent post.

[mr.hobblesworth]

It was not a national vote, it was mainly in Tory areas, Libs did well but not as well as they did in their hay day with 40/50 MPs.

 

Yeah, I was confused by that. I was looking at the last few years' results on wikipedia and they don't seem to match up at all. London didn't vote yesterday, did they?

[Fosse69]

Yeah, I was confused by that. I was looking at the last few years' results on wikipedia and they don't seem to match up at all. London didn't vote yesterday, did they?

 

The only comparison is when the same seats were last contested, which was the last election year, thus higher turnout then and Tories on the rise, so this time they were bound to lose seat before other aspects came into play. I didn't have a vote as the 3 Tories in our ward were elected un-opposed, so much for democracy.