Brexit again...

[Bycarsbill]

I haven't once said Labour have done well. They didn't do well (although there were a couple of glimmers like Trafford, Calderdale etc) but my argument is that to state that their disappointing performance was on a par with the Tories' is untrue. As I said, it's not a huge issue for me and I think that council elections when everyone is so wrapped up in Brexit means that you can't draw any particularly significant meaning from this (which is why I've not been crowing about the tories' huge losses) but I don't think the 2 performances are comparable. It's also worth noting that not all councils were being elected; to be honest, I'm not sure how the election cycle works regarding councils but I do get the impression that you can't get a wholly accurate picture from the recent poll.

 

The bit I've put in bold isn't true*. Labour "got a kicking" for both not delivering Brexit and for not promising a second referendum. I appreciate how frustrating Labour's 'policy' is for many - Frankie Boyle likened it to astrology! - but it's difficult to know what a party whose membership is so overwhelmingly in favour of remaining should do when 'ver peepul hav spoke'. I personally feel that the recent policy came across as being to timid regarding a 2nd vote and that we'd have taken/ kept more of the Lib Dem/ Green votes if we had.

 

As for the racism bit, it probably deserves it's own thread. I accept that there is an issue in Labour, as there is in society, with anti-semitism but I don't believe that the party is "riddled with it. As people have consistently stated, even if all the complaints were upheld it still only means that a tiny proportion of Labour members hold these views. Many of the tweets and comments mentioned by the likes of Hodge weren't even from Labour Party members. I also believe that outrage regarding anti-semitism are finding it a handy peg on which to hang their hatred of Corbyn, like Tony Robinson who has been campaigning against him from the moment he was elected leader.

 

EDIT: * Just seen you mentioned this in your subsequent post.

 

Racism; unfortunately IMO you're making the same mistake as the party leadership by trying to deflect this problem and not facing up to the reality that, notwithstanding general racism in society,the situation within the party is obviously much, much worse. Tackling it head-on will be in the best interest of the party, but again unfortunately, with the current leadership's leanings toward the Palestinian cause, I doubt it's ever going to happen anytime soon.

 

Facing both ways on Brexit; this opaque (and politically quite clever)policy has served Labour quite well until now, but it is now in an even more difficult position should the European elections go ahead. Which way will it turn? An intriguing question, with the majority of membership tilting toward remain/2nd referendum and the leadership toward exiting, it really will be interesting to see what Labour's manifesto will say. One thing for sure, it cannot sit on the fence any longer!

 

Council elections; a matter of semantics and degree as to whether or not you are indicating that Labour hasn't done too badly. Considering that only on Wednesday, John McDonnell was predicting 400 + gained seats for labour (and even this number presumably will have been down-played by him for expediency to manage expectations) the 80 losses cannot in any way be described as anything other than a BIG disappointment for Labour.

[Andyregs]

Faux outrage? Not sure what you mean by that.

 

Pretty weird thing to try and point score on but I dont put anything past the left currently.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that terrorism is wrong and that we disavow those who defend it? I'm glad we've been able to clear this up?

 

I do agree. Some think there are very fine people on both sides, however.

[mr.hobblesworth]

Council elections; a matter of semantics and degree as to whether or not you are indicating that Labour hasn't done too badly. Considering that only on Wednesday, John McDonnell was predicting 400 + gained seats for labour (and even this number presumably will have been down-played by him for expediency to manage expectations) the 80 losses cannot in any way be described as anything other than a BIG disappointment for Labour.

 

Of course it was a disappointing result for Labour. I am 'happy' to state that. I'm not defending our performance (although it was nice to see my own ward turn red for the first time in decades); my only point was that to lump it even with the tories' utterly disastrous result was inaccurate.

 

As a matter of interest, what conclusions do you think can be reached from the election results?

[mr.hobblesworth]

Facing both ways on Brexit; this opaque (and politically quite clever)policy has served Labour quite well until now, but it is now in an even more difficult position should the European elections go ahead. Which way will it turn? An intriguing question, with the majority of membership tilting toward remain/2nd referendum and the leadership toward exiting, it really will be interesting to see what Labour's manifesto will say. One thing for sure, it cannot sit on the fence any longer!

 

I agree. I don't think the current position should be the one the party have, and do believe that they should be slightly (only slightly, mind) more open to a 2nd vote.

[geosname]

 

As a matter of interest, what conclusions do you think can be reached from the election results?

 

None except the voters don't like the Tories or Labour...... they think they are both bloody useless.

I doubt the lib dems vote would hold in a general election or the greens, certainly not the independents.

The big question hangs over the European elections...... and what Labour will do or say to try and win voters back when it's a simpler question...... the Tories are probably already out of it.

[geosname]

It was not a national vote, it was mainly in Tory areas, Libs did well but not as well as they did in their hay day with 40/50 MPs.

Could be that the next govt will be Lab/Lib/SNP with Anti-austerity the thread, Lab strength is the metros, Libs to grab seats in the rural areas. As for Brexit, parliament will never agree so the only way is a re-think and put it back to the people.

 

So Labour would agree to another indie ref to get the SNP on board and no brexit to get the libs on board...... sounds like the Tories and DUP

[mr.hobblesworth]

None except the voters don't like the Tories or Labour...... they think they are both bloody useless.

I doubt the lib dems vote would hold in a general election or the greens, certainly not the independents.

The big question hangs over the European elections...... and what Labour will do or say to try and win voters back when it's a simpler question...... the Tories are probably already out of it.

 

Nearly 60% voted for one of the big 2. I count find anywhere that lists the actual amount of votes cast but it will run in to the millions. I don't think the 2 party system is dead quite yet.

[Fosse69]

So Labour would agree to another indie ref to get the SNP on board and no brexit to get the libs on board...... sounds like the Tories and DUP

 

Brexit will unfold, whether there will be a confirmation referendum who knows, pressure on SNP goes if we stay in the EU. Austerity then becomes the battleground.

[geosname]

Nearly 60% voted for one of the big 2. I count find anywhere that lists the actual amount of votes cast but it will run in to the millions. I don't think the 2 party system is dead quite yet.

 

Sadly I agree, I didn't suggest it was...... what normally happens when the public get fed up with the government they vote for the opposition..... it didn't happen.

The vote was about the same for the big 2..... 26% I think..... the no hopers got the rest..... 48%?

I don't think the 2 party system will die as such..... it will just choke it's self into coalitions.

[geosname]

Brexit will unfold, whether there will be a confirmation referendum who knows, pressure on SNP goes if we stay in the EU. Austerity then becomes the battleground.

 

The SNP only care about one thing.... that won't fade if brexit disappeared... even if brexit falls it won't just go away....... the people who voted for it won't just go away... it will cause political problems for quite a while...... I would guess the same sort of problems as brexit itself.

[Warren]

The SNP aren't a political problem to England. If they become independent England will thrive as one of the largest and wealthiest countries in the world. Wales will hang with us and Northern Ireland will prosper if they refrain from shooting each other. Meanwhile Scotland may thrive, or maybe not. I think Scotland is a diverse country. It has a very wealthy rural community and a 4 significant cities. But its public spending is unsustainable without England subsidizing it. And the many small towns that make up Scotland like Arbroath and Forfar may well be much poorer places in an independent country. Even oil revenue won't bridge the gap. As for their own currency - risky, very risky.

[Warren]

If an EU election takes place, as a Conservative Party member I will vote for the Brexit Party. The aim will be to inflict the maximum possible rejection of the Maybot. She needs to be removed from office immediately.

[mr.hobblesworth]

What do you think a different leader could achieve that May couldn't, given that we still haven't managed to get a majority of MPs to agree on any of the numerous indicative votes put before them?

[Regal Beagle]

What do you think a different leader could achieve that May couldn't, given that we still haven't managed to get a majority of MPs to agree on any of the numerous indicative votes put before them?

 

A leader who has a strong will and understands the strong will of the people will be able to put pressure on MPs to fall in line.

 

The MP's know she's weak and that empowers them. If a leader was appointed who understands that people actually want brexit and has the character to tell the EU that they can **** right off then the MP's will finally understand that this is not going away.

[Bycarsbill]

Of course it was a disappointing result for Labour. I am 'happy' to state that. I'm not defending our performance (although it was nice to see my own ward turn red for the first time in decades); my only point was that to lump it even with the tories' utterly disastrous result was inaccurate.

 

As a matter of interest, what conclusions do you think can be reached from the election results?

 

Not a lot, apart from the obvious conclusion that both major parties were being punished by the electorate, but sometimes from differing directions--that's the dichotomy of the Brexit affect! It would appear that in some extreme cases, people who are "leavers" voted for the Greens or Lib-Dems just as a protest. The EU elections (if they go ahead) will be a totally different kettle of fish with the Brexit party and Ukip confusing the issue (and possibly, the voters?) this time around.