Brexit again...

[Thevalefan]

Not being argumentative here tvf but the last paragraph is a fairy story.

 

When you pay a political party (DUP) £1 billion to prop your Govt up - who then go against all your decisions and negotiating moves and block what your going for... then anything can happen. Nothing would surprise any of us right now.

 

SNP said they'd back a second referendum on Brexit if they could have a second independence referendum, and now it appears they'll support Brexit mandate in return for an independence referendum after Brexit. They're angling for it because they know it can be pulled off right now with the current state of affairs in the UK. They're confident of it.

[Thevalefan]

Not in your lifetime tvf.

 

Don't be so sure. We are well and truly rocking the boat between our own union though!

[Paul6754]

If there was a referendum and to leave was the majority again would remain supporters accept it?

 

Howjy, Absolutely yes I would accept it, I also consider a 2nd referendum would stand a chance to help re-unite the UK whatever the result. I anticipate most Remainers and hope Leavers would accept a second vote for the simple reason that it's clearer now what in or out would mean.

 

It would be a result based more on reality than one based solely on Lies and set an excellent precedent for democracy. It would be an "OK I don't agree with the result but I will get behind the country and make it work" moment, whereas the 1st referendum result just leaves a bad taste 'cause of the lies.

[Paul6754]

If you want to look at things from that perspective, then also consider the advantages of not being limited to trading beyond the single market. Punitive tariffs are only going to hurt the Business people with the audacity to have jumped ship from the UK whilst in the EU as their operational costs and labour would work out cheaper. It hasn't stopped and will not stop firms from moving to poorer countries. This put our Indigenous people out of work...pushes them into low skilled service jobs with all manufacturing moving abroad. I speak from experience, it happened to me, at a car wiring harness assembly plant in 1999. That was 19 years ago-17 years before the EU referendum. How many people in manufacturing have lost their jobs in that time period? I think quite a few

 

WTBK, the UK has never been restricted from trading with any country, in fact it has benefited being part of the EU by being able to trade with non-EU countries using favorable trade terms negotiated by the EU (containing the UK). Punitive tariffs are more likely to happen when the UK is outside the EU, it won't be the business people who will suffer the most it will be the more needy in the UK.

 

The UK has lost jobs (nothing to do with being a member of the EU) but it can be argued UK governments or all types didn't stand up for the UK jobs and companies. The UK has also gained jobs because it's been able to trade openly with the EU and other parts of the world.

 

Low paid warehouse jobs employed by firms avoiding their fair share of Taxes. With the internet came Globalisation. It is not just the EU why firms enjoy the advantage of a 'Bigger market place'.

 

I to am puzzled why global companies appear to be able not to pay their fair share of taxes but that's a UK issue in the UK. Of course the internet has played a major part in globalization, no one would deny otherwise.

 

As for your claim of the DWP having less money. That is frankly laughable. People are already not having any money at all through the Unfair Universal credit system- it's nothing to do with the EU. In fact coming out of the EU saves billions and that is before we even start- some of that money can go to the Benefits budget

 

Essentially, the folks in the UK who work in the private sector, make and sell goods and services throughout the world make profits for their companies which are taxed and make salaries for themselves which are taxed and these taxes provide the money for the government to run the country, to pay for the NHS, the Welfare State, Schools, you name it. There is only so much money to go around and if the money pot gets smaller the NHS, the DWP etc will all get less money unless the country borrows money to pay. So it isn't laughable and if Brexit severely impacts the UK economy then it could get worse, much worse.

 

The NHS, UKIP suggested that people coming from abroad pay for their own health insurance and that still need to transpire to bring the NHS budget to stability. At the moment the NHS is suffering because of unlimited EU usage. Your logic to this is bizarre

 

I hear the stories of health tourism but don't know how prevalent they are but it's up to the UK government to sort out any abuse. The NHS is mainly there for people who live and work in the UK.

[Jacko51]

Yes you are but I think you might be getting a little confused,wasn't that a vote to join a common market and not a marriage to a union of 27 different countries,many with different economies,cultures and at various stages of development?

 

Not confused at all. There have been Eurosceptics in Parliament ever since 1975 - Tony Benn for starters. They opposed the common market in 75 and carried on doing so thereafter long before it expanded to 27 other countries.

 

The UK has remained a member of the EU but has largely remained outside of several of the key features of the EU because we didn't agree with them. We didn't join the Euro. We didn't join the Schengen agreement. We had the bits we liked and ignored the bits we didn't. Now we won't even have the bits we liked.

[Birches Head Fred]

Howjy, Absolutely yes I would accept it, I also consider a 2nd referendum would stand a chance to help re-unite the UK whatever the result. I anticipate most Remainers and hope Leavers would accept a second vote for the simple reason that it's clearer now what in or out would mean.

 

It would be a result based more on reality than one based solely on Lies and set an excellent precedent for democracy. It would be an "OK I don't agree with the result but I will get behind the country and make it work" moment, whereas the 1st referendum result just leaves a bad taste 'cause of the lies.

 

In my view most Leavers don't need a second vote as it's clear now what 'in' meant all those years ago when we voted to join.

The result was based on reality in my opinion and the reality is that what we have now isn't what we voted to join, far from it.

Yes there are obvious advantages in being in the 'Common Market' but we voted out. The Tories promised us the vote and the die was cast.

Why not have a re-vote on joining in the first place?, after all we are all more the wiser now.

 

We voted out, the government took what they thought was a 'given' gamble and it blew up in their face but democracy stands by 1 man (or woman) 1 vote and the majority won the day.

 

This is Cameron's legacy.

[Paul6754]

In my view most Leavers don't need a second vote as it's clear now what 'in' meant all those years ago when we voted to join.

The result was based on reality in my opinion and the reality is that what we have now isn't what we voted to join, far from it.

Yes there are obvious advantages in being in the 'Common Market' but we voted out. The Tories promised us the vote and the die was cast.

Why not have a re-vote on joining in the first place?, after all we are all more the wiser now.

 

We voted out, the government took what they thought was a 'given' gamble and it blew up in their face but democracy stands by 1 man (or woman) 1 vote and the majority won the day.

 

This is Cameron's legacy.

 

BHF, I would take a re-vote on joining in a heart beat!!!! Only issue is, as Jacko has alluded to above, the UK has got many of the good bits and not some of the bad bits. If Brexit does turn out to be a disaster for the UK then I can't imagine the EU giving the UK the concessions it has now if it wanted to re-join.

[Aussie Rules]

Not confused at all. There have been Eurosceptics in Parliament ever since 1975 - Tony Benn for starters. They opposed the common market in 75 and carried on doing so thereafter long before it expanded to 27 other countries.

 

The UK has remained a member of the EU but has largely remained outside of several of the key features of the EU because we didn't agree with them. We didn't join the Euro. We didn't join the Schengen agreement. We had the bits we liked and ignored the bits we didn't. Now we won't even have the bits we liked.

 

Correct Jean, and given a second Referendum reversed the first result I very much doubt the EU would allow the UK to simply carry on as before. Cap in hand at the Brussels table comes to mind.

[For Us All]

Correct Jean, and given a second Referendum reversed the first result I very much doubt the EU would allow the UK to simply carry on as before. Cap in hand at the Brussels table comes to mind.

 

We could always go for the best of three Barry?

[Jacko51]

We could always go for the best of three Barry?

 

Another referendum would be the third.

[Howjy04]

Another referendum would be the third.

 

2057 it is then.

[Thevalefan]

I don't understand Brexiteers fear of a second referendum?

 

If Brexit will be as great and successful as you 'hope' it will be - then surely everyone else can see this and a larger vote to leave would happen further strengthening the Leave position. Enhanced democratic decision based on what we know now.

 

Like I said; Brexiteers views on here are that democracy means people can't change their mind even in the face of being given false information. Hardly a democracy to be proud of is it?

[Heatwave]

2057 it is then.

 

And the debate would be still packed with lies, half truths and stuff taken way out of context.

 

I have come to believe that referenda cause more problems than they solve and shouldn't be used to decide policy. That is the purpose of governments - we vote them in, they set the policies and if we don't agree with them then we vote them out again.

 

Does that mean I don't want a third referendum? Well no actually, because there were so many lies told by the Leave campaign we're only now finding out what the actual implications of leaving are. What damage the second referendum did could now only be put right by a third - so bring it on.

[Jacko51]

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

 

Read it properly.

[Jacko51]

I have come to believe that referenda cause more problems than they solve and shouldn't be used to decide policy. That is the purpose of governments - we vote them in, they set the policies and if we don't agree with them then we vote them out again.

 

I posted this on PVO on 16th February 2016. I have seen absolutely nothing to make me change my mind:

I'm in and I shall vote but I am opposed the principle of referenda. We have elections to send representatives to act for us in Parliament. We allow those representatives to make the key decisions for our country because we assume they are sufficiently well informed to make a judgement on those decisions. With all due respect to the electorate in general, how well informed are the majority on the nuances of membership of the European Union. I know I'm not. My in vote is on the basis that staying in gives a degree of certainty about the future. We know what we'll be getting.