Brexit again...

[geosname]

Missing the point. If the attitude of people is "Im paying for your education" because it's largely impossible to pay the tuition fees if you come from a working class background... it's hypocritical when the one's saying it had the opportunity to study for free?

 

Not really because the opportunity to study free was very limited back in the day... it wasn't an option for most.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

The current higher education set up in the UK is a shining example of our post industrial society, universities are now seen as businesses. We tout them to foreign students to attract foreign currency. This isn't bad thing in itself but shows what we have to do in terms of international trading. It highlights how difficult life will be outside the EU when we've constructed unnecessary barriers between ourselves and what is now our home market where services are our main exports. It's like Wales separating itself from the rest of the UK and exiting the barrier free trade it has now, it wouldn't go well for them would it?

[SourceOfTheTrent]

I apologise for being chronically ill,with no sign of a cure.The help I get is disablement help.The rest is what I worked for -Company Pension,Which was decimated by money grabbing socialists.I get no other help because my wife has job and earns too much.

If it wasn't for 'money grabbing socialists' you wouldn't get any welfare help at all and the state pension would be even worse than it is now. Have a look at what British life was like prior to the mild socialist influences we've had since 1945, pretty grim for most people and the dreadful class system was all powerful.

Gordon Brown's raid on pension dividends was awful, I'd agree, but if you want to accuse people of being money grabbers you should consider the consistent Tory policies of reducing direct taxation in favour of indirect taxation which means the lower your income the greater percentage of it is consumed by tax, their opposition to progressive income tax for very high earners, e.g., a 5% cut for earnings above £150k (not many people in that bracket), low corporate tax and poor enforcement of its payment and not tackling offshore tax avoidance and evasion. The Phillip Green BHS affair sums up our institutional corruption, he "legally" robbed £900m from the pensions of 11,000 people TAX FREE and swanned it off to Monaco, out of the UK altogether, and what did the Tory government do? Nothing. Haven't changed the law and didn't even take his pathetic monarchist feudal title off him. Now that's what I call money grabbing.

Anyone - and I mean anyone - who relies on their salary to live and votes Tory is an idiot and a class lackey. I don't care how arrogant that is because it's true. To be clear I don't consider someone who favours free enterprise as an idiot and I oppose all political extremism but the Tories are the party of monarchy, feudalism, class structure, snobbery and exploitation. They'd never get elected in the States which is a full on capitalist country because Americans wouldn't accept their class ridden attitudes and especially their support of hereditary privilege.

It's mainly the pompous Tory attitude that is the cause of Brexit which is our biggest disaster since Tory imperialist attitudes got us involved in the Great War in 1914.

[cheshirevaliant]

Didn't we have a Liberal government between 1905 and the end of the Great War?

[SourceOfTheTrent]

Didn't we have a Liberal government between 1905 and the end of the Great War?

Apologies, yes we did but the attitudes then were little different than the Tories. The Boris Johnson of the day, Winston Churchill, was in the Liberal government for years. No greater exponent of Tory values than him, a horrible man who's only virtue was his leadership in WW2. I'll acknowledge him that.

[Thevalefan]

Not really because the opportunity to study free was very limited back in the day... it wasn't an option for most.

 

Depends how far you go back. "Back in the day" kid's left school to work as a young teenager.

 

The year I was born, 30% of 18-30 year old's were in free higher education. A generation later that's increased to 50% paying £9000.

 

It is what it is though I suppose! You deal with the hand your dealt in life, best to the environment around you.

[Paul6754]

The current higher education set up in the UK is a shining example of our post industrial society, universities are now seen as businesses. We tout them to foreign students to attract foreign currency. This isn't bad thing in itself but shows what we have to do in terms of international trading. It highlights how difficult life will be outside the EU when we've constructed unnecessary barriers between ourselves and what is now our home market where services are our main exports. It's like Wales separating itself from the rest of the UK and exiting the barrier free trade it has now, it wouldn't go well for them would it?

 

SOTT, UK Universities have always attracted overseas students, particularly for higher degrees, and always sought relationships with business, small and large.

 

It wouldn't surprise me the UK is the same as the USA in terms of the reasons for the large rises in tuition fees. Every University these days has armies of bureaucrats/administrators frothing over diversity, equality, gender studies, equal opportunity etc, all being paid high salaries and someone has to pay.

 

Any person hoping for a lectureship in a faculty of Humanities, Social Sciences, Political Sciences etc hasn't got a hope in hell unless they follow the doctrines of identity politics hence why most graduates these days are left leaning, they're being brain washed instead of being taught to think for themselves.

 

I don't like Class Politics but but dislike Identity Politics even more, the latter is very dangerous.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

SOTT, UK Universities have always attracted overseas students, particularly for higher degrees, and always sought relationships with business, small and large.

 

It wouldn't surprise me the UK is the same as the USA in terms of the reasons for the large rises in tuition fees. Every University these days has armies of bureaucrats/administrators frothing over diversity, equality, gender studies, equal opportunity etc, all being paid high salaries and someone has to pay.

 

Any person hoping for a lectureship in a faculty of Humanities, Social Sciences, Political Sciences etc hasn't got a hope in hell unless they follow the doctrines of identity politics hence why most graduates these days are left leaning, they're being brain washed instead of being taught to think for themselves.

 

I don't like Class Politics but but dislike Identity Politics even more, the latter is very dangerous.

You're correct about UK universities having always had paying overseas students, the point I was making was regarding our huge expansion of that an operating it more like a commercial business and the reasons why that is.

As for the identity politics you mention there has always been strong liberal / left leaning influences in universities for as long as I can remember but that doesn't really reflect in wider society as many students become less radical and idealistic once they start in their careers, I think a lot of it is the identity and idealism of youth. However, some of the stuff that goes on is laughable such as today's news that Manchester University Students Union are requiring people attending meetings not to clap or cheer so as not to scare people with anxiety issues!!

[geosname]

Depends how far you go back. "Back in the day" kid's left school to work as a young teenager.

 

The year I was born, 30% of 18-30 year old's were in free higher education. A generation later that's increased to 50% paying £9000.

 

It is what it is though I suppose! You deal with the hand your dealt in life, best to the environment around you.

 

Back in the day it wasn't about paying to get there..... but you miss the point that the older generation paid for your education before you decided to attend university.

Nothing is free mate, someone always pays.

[Paul6754]

Not at all.The majorly of older generation got it for free because only a small percentage of people ever went to University.Single figure percentage I believe.Times have changed,is it about half of school leavers who are in higher education now?You needed to be clever in the olden days to go to University.Ask Jean.

 

You're spot on there Howjy.

 

I lived in Kidsgrove, it was one of the first areas of the country to go Comprehensive in the 60's, I was in the catchment area and attended a Comprehensive School that had been a secondary Modern only 2 years before.

 

I was the only kid from my year of approx 250 kids to go to University, from memory 3 or so kids went the year before and similar the year after. More kids went to Teacher Training College. I'm pretty sure a greater % of kids who attended a Grammar School went on to Uni.

[tommytunstall]

I must be losing the plot, I was thinking this was the thread for Brexit, obviously not.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

..... and most of us will pay for Brexit !

[Paul6754]

You're correct about UK universities having always had paying overseas students, the point I was making was regarding our huge expansion of that an operating it more like a commercial business and the reasons why that is.

 

How are Universities being operated like commercial businesses. Certainly Science/Engineering departments always had collaborations/relationships with industries for a number of reasons, it suits both parties.

 

As for the identity politics you mention there has always been strong liberal / left leaning influences in universities for as long as I can remember but that doesn't really reflect in wider society as many students become less radical and idealistic once they start in their careers, I think a lot of it is the identity and idealism of youth. However, some of the stuff that goes on is laughable such as today's news that Manchester University Students Union are requiring people attending meetings not to clap or cheer so as not to scare people with anxiety issues!!

 

Undoubtedly Universities have always tended to be left leaning but they are much more so nowadays. There was never the armies of diversity, gender equality etc administrators. In some University departments in the USA they outnumber faculty and are far better paid. You mention the Manchester case, that's just the tip of the iceberg, The recent stuff about Cambridge University and ethnic minority students, where do you think all this stuff about statues originates from in the USA/UK.

 

If the west continues to advance this diversity nonsense in its universities and companies instead of systems based on merit then eventually the UK/EU and USA will lose out to the likes of China, India and Japan who couldn't give a rats' a** about diversity.

[Jacko51]

Not at all.The majorly of older generation got it for free because only a small percentage of people ever went to University.Single figure percentage I believe.Times have changed,is it about half of school leavers who are in higher education now?You needed to be clever in the olden days to go to University.Ask Jean.

 

This is true, Howjy. Sadly age has taken its toll and I am now deeply stupid.

[Howjy04]

I must be losing the plot, I was thinking this was the thread for Brexit, obviously not.

 

Brexit may affect foreign student intake.