Brexit again...

[For Us All]

And to think people label leave voters as thick.

 

Shadow Home Secretary thick? 😂

[Fosse69]

The immmigration debate hasn't been seriously had yet in this country. It can't be had until we can have an open and honest discussion without anyone being labelled racist, xenophobic, uneducated etc.

 

Believing that British people are better/deserve better treatment than people who were not born in this country is stupid to say the least.

 

Having a default position that we should not criticize or even discuss the effect of our immigration policy is equally stupid.

 

No one is really blaming immigrants themselves I don't think. They're blaming our Government for failing for decades to plan ahead, to put resources in place, to provide suitable jobs and housing. A big part of that, I think, is that we're unable to control who and how many people come to the country and everyone (including people who want to settle here) is suffering because of it.

 

I cannot see how anyone can argue that the current free movement system is better for the UK then a sensible self controlled policy whereby we can set a total number per year that we can accept and sustain, we can limit trades and skills that are saturated and encourage those that will fill a shortage.

 

At the very least I'd say the above is reasonable, the trouble is though that I'm probably going to be accused to bigotry and/or racism again

The main argument in the past has been the cost of a national monitoring system, and probably a bureaucratic nightmare, especially with setting national computers up in this country. I doubt if anyone knows to a million how many people are in the country. How many people from the EU have we sent back if without work for 3 months? I would think wages are the main factor for people returning to the mainland.

[Heatwave]

Labour deciding on a customs union supported by Remainer Tory MPs. This could see either May ousted or another general election.

[The_godfather]

The immmigration debate hasn't been seriously had yet in this country. It can't be had until we can have an open and honest discussion without anyone being labelled racist, xenophobic, uneducated etc.

 

Believing that British people are better/deserve better treatment than people who were not born in this country is stupid to say the least.

 

Having a default position that we should not criticize or even discuss the effect of our immigration policy is equally stupid.

 

No one is really blaming immigrants themselves I don't think. They're blaming our Government for failing for decades to plan ahead, to put resources in place, to provide suitable jobs and housing. A big part of that, I think, is that we're unable to control who and how many people come to the country and everyone (including people who want to settle here) is suffering because of it.

 

I cannot see how anyone can argue that the current free movement system is better for the UK then a sensible self controlled policy whereby we can set a total number per year that we can accept and sustain, we can limit trades and skills that are saturated and encourage those that will fill a shortage.

 

At the very least I'd say the above is reasonable, the trouble is though that I'm probably going to be accused to bigotry and/or racism again

 

I think the problem is with what constitutes a sensible policy RB. I live in Australia, so have experienced, and can see first hand the impact of an alternative (stricter) immigration stance. And it's not without it's own issues.

 

While the concept of setting a limit on numbers does make sense for a number of reasons, the justifications and mechanisms for facilitating them are extraordinarily complex and nuanced. e.g. skill based requirements constantly changing based on the flux of the job market. That might be preferable to unrestricted movement, but who sets the limits? Based on what information? It becomes very political very quickly.

 

To give a personal example - my wife is a primary school teacher who graduated to teach in secondary education in Canada. There are 2 Permanent Residency lists in Aus - Skilled based (easiest to get approved), and Employer Sponsored (a bit harder, for reasons explained below). My wife had worked for 7 years as a primary teacher in Australia, but couldn't apply for a Permanent Residency visa, because only Pre-Primary and Secondary Educators were listed on the skills based list. Even though she was educated in secondary education, she couldn't apply on the basis of having the right skillset, because she was working in Primary education, which was on the 2nd, Employer sponsored list. And companies have to prove that they have tried, and been unable to employ a native Australian before they employ a 'foreigner'. Being the best candidate for the role doesn't necessarily matter. The talk of attracting the best and brightest, most skilled etc doesn't cut it when the reality of the skill gaps in the job market don't reflect that.

 

There is no easy solution to the problem, and I have little faith, particularly observing the system here, that politicians or civil service in the UK could get it remotely right, given the relative populations of the 2 countries.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

Interesting comments, Godfather. Immigration was the key issue in the referendum and there was a lot of talk about a controlled system but I think it was presented in a very disingenuous way by many politicians who could have easily promoted or installed such a system for non-EU migrants years ago but didn't. As this type of immigration accounts for more than 50% and always has it shows the political class have no intention of seriously restricting immigration, especially as non-EU migrants are far less likely to ever leave once they come to the UK. Whatever anyone's stance on Brexit the immigration issue remains and is subject to debate as to what, if anything, will be done.

 

Sent from my [device_name] using the http://onevalefan mobile app

[philpvfc]

I don’t think Brexit will make a huge effect on or immigration numbers, it will help but there are a lot more policies that need to change and some hard decisions to be made if the Government is to achieve the targets that have been set.

[For Us All]

Labour deciding on a customs union supported by Remainer Tory MPs. This could see either May ousted or another general election.

 

They are selling Labour Brexiteer's down the river.

Staying in the Customs Union isn't leaving the EU Jezza.

[tommytunstall]

The vote was to leave or not. No details on what sort of Brexit we want were discussed, I will stick my neck out and say other than the Tory right wingers, and people who want to go back to the "Empire" days, we need an exit that is not damaging to Business, Trade etc. A complete detach from the EU would be disastrous, we need to trade from within an organisation, there are problems with the EU i grant you, but going it alone would be worse.

They are selling Labour Brexiteer's down the river.

Staying in the Customs Union isn't leaving the EU Jezza.

[Santa]

True, there was no mention of a Customs Union on the ballot paper.

 

Any sort of manufacturing company with a lean supply chains will hold very little inventory. Nissan only have about enough for half a day's worth of production. If their deliveries start getting held up in customs clearance they will up sticks and move somewhere else back inside the EU.

 

Leaving the CU is massively anti-business. If Labour proposed it the RW press would jump straight on them for it.

 

And then there's the GFA.

 

[For Us All]

Who wrote Jezza's speech,Junker.😂

[Davebrad]

Its alright saying we want close ties, with a custom union, etc... but do they, france in particular want us? we or them have never been the closest of allies/friends...

[Fosse69]

Its alright saying we want close ties, with a custom union, etc... but do they, france in particular want us? we or them have never been the closest of allies/friends...

Historically we are an Anglo-Saxon country same as Germany, whereas France is not and one of their tribes conquered England. The tribe are still here but fell out with the mainland. To avoid successive wars mainly between the three over the centuries, an economic grouping evolved, but did not eliminate minor squabbles which happens in all families or groups. I am not convinced the current highly complicated upheaval will be of benefit, there are bigger problems in the world, as well as at home to be dealt with.

[Santa]

Its alright saying we want close ties, with a custom union, etc... but do they, france in particular want us? we or them have never been the closest of allies/friends...

Depends who you mean by they - President Macron? The French population at large?

 

We had the entente cordiale at the beginning of the 20th Century, we were allies during two world wars... arguably France had a bigger axe to grind with some of the axis countries during the post war period but it didn't stop them being a big player in forming the ECSC with West Germany and Italy in the 1950s.

[For Us All]

I think the problem is with what constitutes a sensible policy RB. I live in Australia, so have experienced, and can see first hand the impact of an alternative (stricter) immigration stance. And it's not without it's own issues.

 

While the concept of setting a limit on numbers does make sense for a number of reasons, the justifications and mechanisms for facilitating them are extraordinarily complex and nuanced. e.g. skill based requirements constantly changing based on the flux of the job market. That might be preferable to unrestricted movement, but who sets the limits? Based on what information? It becomes very political very quickly.

 

To give a personal example - my wife is a primary school teacher who graduated to teach in secondary education in Canada. There are 2 Permanent Residency lists in Aus - Skilled based (easiest to get approved), and Employer Sponsored (a bit harder, for reasons explained below). My wife had worked for 7 years as a primary teacher in Australia, but couldn't apply for a Permanent Residency visa, because only Pre-Primary and Secondary Educators were listed on the skills based list. Even though she was educated in secondary education, she couldn't apply on the basis of having the right skillset, because she was working in Primary education, which was on the 2nd, Employer sponsored list. And companies have to prove that they have tried, and been unable to employ a native Australian before they employ a 'foreigner'. Being the best candidate for the role doesn't necessarily matter. The talk of attracting the best and brightest, most skilled etc doesn't cut it when the reality of the skill gaps in the job market don't reflect that.

 

There is no easy solution to the problem, and I have little faith, particularly observing the system here, that politicians or civil service in the UK could get it remotely right, given the relative populations of the 2 countries.

 

The Italian general election next month will be interesting going by this?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43167699

[Davebrad]

Depends who you mean by they - President Macron? The French population at large?

 

We had the entente cordiale at the beginning of the 20th Century, we were allies during two world wars... arguably France had a bigger axe to grind with some of the axis countries during the post war period but it didn't stop them being a big player in forming the ECSC with West Germany and Italy in the 1950s.

 

 

I think its a case of fighting them all thru history, then the first WW they thought we let them down, 2WW again they say we did not do enough to stop the Germans when the drove thru france, saying then we did not rescue their soldiers from Dunkirk although a third of those saved were French. Then we had to sink the French fleet to stop the Germans getting it.

After they surrendered De Gaulle proclaimed himself leader of the free French, but ended disliking Churchill and Roosevelt because we didn't include them in the post war talks... So then he blocked our application 3 times to join the other 6 nations in the ECSC, so this might of again stoked their dislike of us... to be honest I think we've always hated them-frogs bah...