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I think it's fair to question Askey since the start of the season, but overall he's done a sound job since taking over.

 

My question with Askey (And other managers like Adams who do similar) is, why not change a winning side or winning system? We're not playing the same side the following week, so unless you're on high form it's unlikely to be a repeat. 4-4-2 beating Wigan reserves Tuesday does not automatically mean it'll work again against Carlisle on Saturday.

 

I think there's time to look at the scouting reports, watch previous games to see what we're up against and plan accordingly for that fixture. And in some ways I'm sure they do that. But just sticking to what worked last is very old school, and with the modern changes to the game we seem to caught out reasonably often by being inflexible.

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I like Askey and think he has done a good job since taking over and wouldn't want to judge him untill end of the season. However I think the last three games are worrying because in all three games we

Hate posts like this. This is a forum. It is where football fans discuss football. Bore off

I think what we have forgotten is he came in to a club where players were turning up drunk to training eating leftovers and he had 2 players banned for failing drug tests. Yes he's slow with his subs

20 hours ago, TylerB said:

Not at all. My point is that we can't keep banging on about last season. Worrall was great last season, so what? Does that somehow mean that he's less <ovf censored> this season just because of what he did many months ago? Yeah, he's a decent player at this level and will no doubt come good again. But that doesn't mean his performances can't be questioned. And the same thing applies to Askey. I've been his biggest fan here but if people think the last few games are just a minor blip and they genuinely aren't worried about how performances have quickly fallen... As a League Two side I'm realistic and accept that we will lose games here and there no matter how strong our squad is on paper. But if Salford beat us, and I expect them to because I really don't think we're just going to suddenly decide to turn up full of confidence, then that will be 1 point from the last 12. Let that sink in for a moment.

Nobody is saying players "performances can't be questioned" but this thread is about JA.  He's almost certainly as brassed off as the rest of us with the form of certain players.

A few games is a "minor blip" surely?

You are saying that we shouldn't look at last season but the problem with that idea is that due to the way the players, individually, and the team as a whole, performed last season we fans have much higher expectations for this.  Hence some are questioning the manager after just a few games.  One of which, ironically, the Exeter game, isn't being mentioned much.

In this context, when forming an opinion regarding JA, the players, whatever, the past is intrisically linked to the present and the future, you only have to look at your last sentence to see this.

We've had a long, enforced break, an abnormal pre-season, and we're expecting normal service to be resumed at the flick of a switch.  I maintain that it's too early to worry just yet and any concerns I may have are around players form rather than JA's ability.

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I think it's fair to question Askey since the start of the season, but overall he's done a sound job since taking over.
 
My question with Askey (And other managers like Adams who do similar) is, why not change a winning side or winning system? We're not playing the same side the following week, so unless you're on high form it's unlikely to be a repeat. 4-4-2 beating Wigan reserves Tuesday does not automatically mean it'll work again against Carlisle on Saturday.
 
I think there's time to look at the scouting reports, watch previous games to see what we're up against and plan accordingly for that fixture. And in some ways I'm sure they do that. But just sticking to what worked last is very old school, and with the modern changes to the game we seem to caught out reasonably often by being inflexible.
I don't think that's entirely fair. How many times was aspin berated for setting up to stop the oppo rather than concentrating on what we can do? I'm sure JA and co take into account oppo threats but his first thought always seems to be our game, in credit to him. From memory, I don't think JA has actually played 442 for us as a matter of design until the Carlisle game, which was understandable given the wigan win and general performance. Problem was, for me, that the players utterly failed to execute it. If we'd had the same level of performance as against wigan, I've little doubt we would probably have won. But we didn't. And we didn't. So it's not back to the drawing board, but finding that mix that will perform consistently at the level required, whatever the formation. I think we're getting close to certain players being marginalised having not taken their chances, and a core group of 17 or 18 playing more often than not
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We only got 14 points from our first 11 games last season. We struggled with injuries last season just like we are now that's why Taylor and burgess started playing regularly for us and we ended up signing will atkinson. Think in September last year we lost crookes conlon oyeleke Evan's and amoo to injury just like we are suffering now with oyeleke Gibbons mills Cullen amoo all injured smith isolating and a few like Mckirdy not match fit. 

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4 hours ago, philmpv said:
4 hours ago, TylerB said:
Not randomly dropping your two best midfielders from the team together when not injured would be a hell of a start. And when something clearly isn't working after 45 minutes, don't send the same team out with the same formation and the same tactics. You can't suddenly polish a turd.

Playing devil's advocate, those 2 midfielders that you refer to created absolutely nothing in their previous game against harrogate, and their replacements in the wigan game played very well. Out of interest, if JA had played Joyce and conlon in the Carlisle match, with the same result and performance, what would have been your reaction then?

We'll never know. But what I do know is that you yourself wouldn't have made the decision Askey did. And neither would anybody else here. I'm all for rotating one or two players if they have a knock or are knackered, but that wasn't the case here. The midfield is the heart of the team and we were already missing Oyeleke again. To play two new midfielders together for the first time on top of three new players to the side in defence compared to the weeks before was lunacy, and so it proved.

Edited by TylerB

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15 minutes ago, Guitar Ray said:

Nobody is saying players "performances can't be questioned" but this thread is about JA.  He's almost certainly as brassed off as the rest of us with the form of certain players.

A few games is a "minor blip" surely?

You are saying that we shouldn't look at last season but the problem with that idea is that due to the way the players, individually, and the team as a whole, performed last season we fans have much higher expectations for this.  Hence some are questioning the manager after just a few games.  One of which, ironically, the Exeter game, isn't being mentioned much.

In this context, when forming an opinion regarding JA, the players, whatever, the past is intrisically linked to the present and the future, you only have to look at your last sentence to see this.

We've had a long, enforced break, an abnormal pre-season, and we're expecting normal service to be resumed at the flick of a switch.  I maintain that it's too early to worry just yet and any concerns I may have are around players form rather than JA's ability.

I'm not worried that we can't still have a good season. I am worried that Askey doesn't know his best forward when playing his preferred 4-3-3, and I'm also worried that we've created next to nothing since the Exeter game in the league. Yeah, we missed a penalty, but Carlisle were more than worthy of the three points. After a poor result and average at best performance against Morecambe where was the response against Harrogate? And after that game there should have been a response against Carlisle. That last about 5 minutes and then it's like we realised they weren't here to roll over, and that was that. I don't mind losing games we're supposed to win if the effort was there but they wanted it more, simple as that. I don't think any of their players would get into our best 11 and yet they looked superior in every department. 

If we put it right in the next couple of games I'm more than happy to say that we had a blip and I'll hold my hands up for worrying a little too much. But I have my doubts.

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How Askey plays isn’t just about the front 6 though. The system needs fullbacks to join in  too, so Clarke / Monty / Gibbo - whichever  2 are fit out of those 3 should play all the time in a 4-3-3 and we need their energy in getting us up the pitch and to support the wingers. Without that energy we lose something in the final third. But equally the wingers need to be contributing too and it’s safe to say that neither Worrall and arguably Rodney have done enough IMO. So the sooner both Amoo and Mckirdy are fit the better as we need that competition in those areas. 

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On 12/10/2020 at 09:58, philmpv said:

Whilst we're at it, let's pretend that John askey didn't take us to the brink of the playoffs last season following 2 successive seasons of nearly dropping out of the FL altogether, let's pretend that we haven't beaten Exeter away and wigan away, let's pretend that the progress that the club has made over the past year and a half hasn't happened, let's pretend that Rome was built in a day......

But - if you pretend all that, it would be too much of a love in...according to Rob1983!!!!

It's all too easy for people to forget JA got us to 1 point...1 goal from the playoffs...and to write that off because we've had 3 poor results on the bounce. Where was all the criticism when we had good results on the bounce? - well, of course there wasn't any...just as in the last few seasons they're waiting for 3 bad results before they pop their heads above the parapet! 

Despite the fact that we retained most of last year's team, we still have several new faces. Finding their best positions...who is / isn't up to the job and who's been hit with injuries and the virus...it may be a while before we gel completely? Meanwhile, let's just remember this is the Vale -world beaters against top teams...stutterers against the bottom! Much, much too soon to be calling out the Manager...and Carol, if it comes to that!

 

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1 hour ago, philmpv said:
1 hour ago, stupers said:
I think it's fair to question Askey since the start of the season, but overall he's done a sound job since taking over.
 
My question with Askey (And other managers like Adams who do similar) is, why not change a winning side or winning system? We're not playing the same side the following week, so unless you're on high form it's unlikely to be a repeat. 4-4-2 beating Wigan reserves Tuesday does not automatically mean it'll work again against Carlisle on Saturday.
 
I think there's time to look at the scouting reports, watch previous games to see what we're up against and plan accordingly for that fixture. And in some ways I'm sure they do that. But just sticking to what worked last is very old school, and with the modern changes to the game we seem to caught out reasonably often by being inflexible.

I don't think that's entirely fair. How many times was aspin berated for setting up to stop the oppo rather than concentrating on what we can do? I'm sure JA and co take into account oppo threats but his first thought always seems to be our game, in credit to him. From memory, I don't think JA has actually played 442 for us as a matter of design until the Carlisle game, which was understandable given the wigan win and general performance. Problem was, for me, that the players utterly failed to execute it. If we'd had the same level of performance as against wigan, I've little doubt we would probably have won. But we didn't. And we didn't. So it's not back to the drawing board, but finding that mix that will perform consistently at the level required, whatever the formation. I think we're getting close to certain players being marginalised having not taken their chances, and a core group of 17 or 18 playing more often than not

If that's what Aspo did. He was an incredibly negative manager, who showed little faith in his players to show any form of creative efficiency so wiped it from the gameplan. He set up not to lose first and foremost. I don't believe Askey is negative, and I think he's a good manager. Nevertheless he has shown on many occasions that he's happy to stick to the same team if they're winning. What I'm saying is I don't think that's the most sensible approach, given that the team you just beat with a lineup/formation isn't the same team you're playing in the next game. If you've just won by playing Pope against some smaller but faster defenders, is it a good thing to play him again against tall, strong defenders that have handled Pope well in the past? Probably not, but we have done that quite a lot. And as I mentioned, it's not just Askey. Many managers in the league follow the approach of what worked last time out will work again. I just not a disciple of that belief, and I think Askey would do better if he was more open to change that approach as and when required.

 

Askey has played 4-4-2 before. He played it against Macclesfield in the EFL trophy last year, and then tried it again a couple of weeks later when we played them in the league when we were dreadful and beaten easily. Wigan played 4-4-2 from my understanding, and so 4-4-2 matched up well. Carlisle are known to play 4-3-3. We were ok in the 1st half, but were being overrun in midfield. The 2nd half was dreadful after the penalty miss and they missed some other good chances to put a gloss on the game.

 

 

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I think under Askey we aren't going to be a high scoring team. He reminds me of how Rudge at times, get to half time 0-0 then take it on from there.

We now have more players who are expecting first team football and Askey has to appease players who probably signed expecting to play. The win against Wigan probably worked against us and had we lost to Wigan then I'm sure both the personnel and formation/tactics would have been different against Carlisle.

Having said that the players on the pitch have to earn the right to win the game but we also have to respect the fact that no team in this league is 'easy meat' and that with no crowds then away teams are far more likely to gain reasonable results due to the lack of atmosphere - this I think is already being proven.

It's odd how a great result away at Exeter now seems to have been 'lucky' - strange how the rhetoric can be altered to suit one's current point of view. Also both Morecambe and Harrogate are both above us and doing well, odd that these games were expected to be easy wins for Vale.

It's early doors and there's a long way to go and anybody with a couple of good results at this stage of the season suddenly jumps up the table quicky.

I like Askey as a manager, he doesn't go overboard when we win and he doesn't throw his toys out of the pram when we lose - at least to us and the press. I'm sure he knows where he may have made errors and hopefully a clear week will give him time to prepare his team and tactics ready for what will be yet another tough game on Saturday.

Askey In for me.

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One of the main disadvantages of changing formation is that we aren't well drilled enough to play 4-4-2 in the same way as we are with the 4-3-3. So much of our play is based around shape and pattern.

The change of formation on Saturday felt out of character for Askey who very rarely strikes me as the sort of manager to throw caution to the wind. 

Decent teams can tweak things and do problem solving in real time. Maybe I'm being unfair but it looked like we didn't have the ability to adapt quickly against Harrogate and Morecambe and it caused a bit of a knee-jerk team selection against Carlisle.

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18 hours ago, Santa said:

One of the main disadvantages of changing formation is that we aren't well drilled enough to play 4-4-2 in the same way as we are with the 4-3-3. So much of our play is based around shape and pattern.

The change of formation on Saturday felt out of character for Askey who very rarely strikes me as the sort of manager to throw caution to the wind. 

Decent teams can tweak things and do problem solving in real time. Maybe I'm being unfair but it looked like we didn't have the ability to adapt quickly against Harrogate and Morecambe and it caused a bit of a knee-jerk team selection against Carlisle.

This, but Santa is better with words than me.

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On 12/10/2020 at 23:28, rob1983 said:

Carrol is out of her depth. Brilliant in the community but needs to hold askey too account.

What happened to Kevin? Not long ago it was always Carol & Kevin, now its just Carol.

 

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Askey?

Well, I know where we were when he arrived. I know where we've been for the last 6 or 7 years and I know I'm feeling better now than I was then.  We haven't finished higher than our current 8th position for some time so I'm willing to assume that he knows better than I do.

A full season needs the use of a full squad. He has procured one where we have genuine competition at every spot. That will pay off in February, March and April. We sill suffer through some tough games just like we have. So what!

We are definitely going in the right direction. Get behind him.

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23 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Kevin has learnt that, as a bloke, he is best keeping his gob shut!!

Very strange. Kevin isn't hardly featured in photographs lately, whereas not long ago it was always the two of them???

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