Match Thread: Fleetwood v Port Vale

[TheSage]

Occasionally we do have problems down the flanks because of the way we set up. 4.3.3 as opposed to 4.4.2 (says he pretending to be Pep Guardiola and knows what he's talking about!) But with 3 in midfield rather than 4 it means the midfielders have a lot of ground to cover and sometimes our full backs are exposed.

I can recall the days of players like Hill and Tankard who always always had excellent cover in front of them in Guppy and McCarthy. They tracked back and worked very hard, often underestimated for their defensive work. Birchall was similar with Yates behind him.

We don't really have that because we play a 3 and not a 4 across the middle. So at times we might be a bit more open. It's the way the cookie crumbles if you go for this system. They all have their pros and cons. That's one good reason why I like us to use 2-3 subs in the second half and get fresh legs on in the centre of the park.

But these are things we can work on in pre-season. It seems we have had two good work outs already against good opponents.

[robf]

4 minutes ago, TheSage said:

But with 3 in midfield rather than 4 it means the midfielders have a lot of ground to cover and sometimes our full backs are exposed.

I can recall the days of players like Hill and Tankard who always always had excellent cover in front of them in Guppy and McCarthy. They tracked back and worked very hard, often underestimated for their defensive work. Birchall was similar with Yates behind him.

I'm no tactical mastermind either but that's how I see it too. I seem to remember that Gibbo and Clark are also keen to bomb forward and can also leave us exposed. So, to me, it looks like the occasional gap in the full-back positions is more due to the system and the "gamble" of playing attacking full-backs and Monty isn't the only one doing it.

For me, Monty was part of a team that took us to the cusp of the play-offs, if he regains his scoring touch he could add some useful goals and he seems a good character to have in the team. Yes, he may make individual positional errors that result in opposition chances/goals but I think his attacking play from full-back contains more positives than negatives. But then again I'm just a fan and no tactician like the manager so I may be reading it wrong.

[Diego Maradona]

From the Sage’s comment, I agree that that the system does require our  ‘wingers’ and left and right sided ‘centre midfielders to track back and help out. At the moment, they possibly haven’t got the match fitness to do this. 

However, even if they did have the match fitness, I wouldn’t want to have to rely on these players to always be there to help out their full back. It is not realistic. I would want a more reliable full back. Like Gibbo.

If we want to push for promotion, we need to sort out at left back. In my opinion, it is a weakness if we choose to play Monty there. Teams, will quickly pick up on this and attack down our left time after time. Therefore, to compensate this, we may end up ‘Amoo’ or ‘Browne’ being used as a defensive midfielder instead of being able to push forward.

Even though he’s great on the ball, can push on and can find a pass, he lacks pace as a full back and gets caught out of position too often for me.

I appreciate that we only had limited highlights on the Fleetwood game but this is what I saw:

00:00 - First Fleetwood attack - where Smith stumbles - no Monty (anywhere). I appreciate that he has probably pushed on but he his not even in the clip trying to get back.

0:58 - Gave ball away in the corner - didn’t seem to work back to make up for it.

1:09 - Goal - winger ‘got a yard’ on Monty to cross. Like I said previously- he seems off the pace. For me, for promotion we need a left back with more pace and who can defend.

1:43 - Monty- out of position- near the half way line. Winger gets half a yard on Monty again. Mills, Legge and Smith left exposed. Another cross from our left. 

Like I say - this area is a weakness at the moment. If you were a manager of an opposition team wouldn’t you attack down our left?

I’m sure Askey is aware of this is looking at remedying it.

If we sort this, we could/should be pushing for promotion.

 

[The French Connection]

Strikes me, two games in against teams from the league above, pre-season is going well. Fleetwood were playing their third game, also.

I don't think Askey's ruled out further signings. He's waiting for a couple of people outside his price range at the moment, which is sensible at the moment given the new budgetary rules of play.

I think he knows what he's doing and is on the right course, just like the rest of the Club .

[CambridgeDon]

1 hour ago, robf said:

I'm no tactical mastermind either but that's how I see it too. I seem to remember that Gibbo and Clark are also keen to bomb forward and can also leave us exposed. So, to me, it looks like the occasional gap in the full-back positions is more due to the system and the "gamble" of playing attacking full-backs and Monty isn't the only one doing it.

For me, Monty was part of a team that took us to the cusp of the play-offs, if he regains his scoring touch he could add some useful goals and he seems a good character to have in the team. Yes, he may make individual positional errors that result in opposition chances/goals but I think his attacking play from full-back contains more positives than negatives. But then again I'm just a fan and no tactician like the manager so I may be reading it wrong.

That's how I see it too. If you analysed the mistakes of every player in the Vale's team, we would have a lot to put right. It's true Monty still has a lot to learn in the defensive part of his game but throughout the season I bet that a combination of Monty, Conlon and Wozza going down the left will give most teams far more problems that they give us, even if they try to exploit the perceived weakness on the left. Monty also has a fair number of goals in him, which we will need given our low scoring rate. Give the lad a chance, the season hasn't even started yet! 

[PV1973]

6 hours ago, JRC said:

There is one comment in the report and two crosses in the clip of any kind of crosses from the left. It's impossible to comment on a player's performance from the Fleetwood game. The cross for the goal was nothing to do with him being out of position. Their player did a Guppy where he made half a yard and swung a decent ball in. First half against Blackpool Sullay Kaikai did the same thing at least 3 times down our right side. The biggest defensive blunder in either game was by Mills at rightback.

C J Hamilton got down our left side a number of times in the second half against Blackpool. Given Fitzpatrick hasn't done much preseason it doesn't prove an awful lot. But on the limited amount seen he didn't look any better defensively than Montano and offered less going forward. Biggest criticism of Montano in the Blackpool game was he gave away two relatively cheap freekicks.

There's a little bit of damned if you do and damned if you don't with fullbacks. If a fullback doesn't get forward much then we want to replace them with a "modern fullback." When they do get forward we inevitability criticise them for being out of position defensively. 

You make some great points.  I know that even our proper right backs will get beaten from time to time and will even be out of position when an attack breaks down (which is why Joyce sits to cover across), it’s a given that will happen to any fullback in a game. But I’m frustrated by us having no dedicated left back for ages now and apart that I felt in too many games last year it was clearly a problem area that the opposition played on. Yesterdays Fleetwood report made a lot of mention of their right winger creating a lot, maybe it was a bit biased or maybe he is just a very good player. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us try either Mills or Gibbo there in a friendly, I really wouldn’t, just to have a look at them too. 

[JRC]

32 minutes ago, CambridgeDon said:

That's how I see it too. If you analysed the mistakes of every player in the Vale's team, we would have a lot to put right. It's true Monty still has a lot to learn in the defensive part of his game but throughout the season I bet that a combination of Monty, Conlon and Wozza going down the left will give most teams far more problems that they give us, even if they try to exploit the perceived weakness on the left. Monty also has a fair number of goals in him, which we will need given our low scoring rate. Give the lad a chance, the season hasn't even started yet! 

That's my view. Keikei got half a yard and a cross in 3 times against Gibbo, thats what higher league wide players can do. I think Montano is better as a wingback with a back 3. There are very few decent leftbacks in league 2. I only really saw 3 who stood out in games last season. One of those was Cohen Bramhall who really got exposed by Exeter in the second leg of the play-off game. All attacking full-backs leave a big gap behind them. Gibbo and Montano are at least quick enough to make up some ground.

The real question is whether Fitzpatrick is better than Montano. He certainly wasn't really rated by Campbell at Macc and needed players to leave and a couple of injuries to get game time. On the limit of a 45 minute appearance he's probably a little better positionally. Montano is much better in the air, quicker and offers more going forwards. FItzpartrick really struggled with C J Hamilton when he moved to the left. If he signed I think he would end up a cover as I see Montano as offering more overall but football is all about opinions. I'd still be interested to see Hurst at leftback before I spent money on someone who may end up as a reserve. Thought he showed decent aggresion in the Blackpool game and it was his main position at Blackpool. He's clearly quite strong despite his size.

[Doha]

Monty got caught out several times against Blackpool, including for the goal. He may be fast but not being a natural defender he doesn't have 10 years of natural positional sense trained into him like the out and out ones do. I'm a big fan of our overlapping wingback play but it opens BIG gaps at the back for a long or diagonal through ball and we will get done on the break by the opposition wingers because although he did really well when converted to LWB the other season, at the end of the day he's still playing out of position and consequently he has to work harder during games as tracking the runner or holding the perfect line doesn't come naturally to him...because he's spent the majority of his career as a LW. He may be fast enough to track back quickly physically...but is he mentally? That 2/3 seconds of hesitation and working out his run is the difference between blocking the cross or not. 

As JRC said, the real question is whether Fitzpatrick is better than Montano.

Or...as Askey alluded to a few weeks ago, getting Mitch Clark back in January on sensible wages, as he's covered LB before. 

[JRC]

45 minutes ago, Doha said:

Monty got caught out several times against Blackpool, including for the goal. He may be fast but not being a natural defender he doesn't have 10 years of natural positional sense trained into him like the out and out ones do. I'm a big fan of our overlapping wingback play but it opens BIG gaps at the back for a long or diagonal through ball and we will get done on the break by the opposition wingers because although he did really well when converted to LWB the other season, at the end of the day he's still playing out of position and consequently he has to work harder during games as tracking the runner or holding the perfect line doesn't come naturally to him...because he's spent the majority of his career as a LW. He may be fast enough to track back quickly physically...but is he mentally? That 2/3 seconds of hesitation and working out his run is the difference between blocking the cross or not. 

As JRC said, the real question is whether Fitzpatrick is better than Montano.

Or...as Askey alluded to a few weeks ago, getting Mitch Clark back in January on sensible wages, as he's covered LB before. 

I think the odds on Clark returning are now quite remote. We paid a lot of money  per week to Leicester for his most recent loan. The rules on age on the EFL website mean he won't qualify as under 21 so he'd probably blow the budget out of the water. Add in the rules on squad numbers and I don't really see it happening. If they are looking at Fitzpatrick I think it means Campbell-Gordon isn't in the frame. I still feel Hurst should be given a chance as he did ok further forward in a more advanced role than he's used to. Bottom line is Fitzpatrick needs to be either better than Montano, or if we can get him on a small wage as cover clearly better than Hurst. Otherwise he's just going to block the development of a promising prospect.

If you want your son to be a footballer pray he's bot right footed. Left footed players make up 10% of the population and 30% of players for obvious reasons. You can get away with not being as good because the advantages of being left-sided outweigh a slight drop in ability. In 50 years watching Vale we've only had 3 really good leftbacks and 2 left wingers. They are 2 perenial problem positions for most lower league sides.

[Diego Maradona]

With what we’ve got, I might start with Crookes at left back as I feel that he’s more defensive minded. I understand that he’s not as comfortable on the ball, can’t push forward etc. as well as Monty. However, I think that he would stop more crosses, defend and keep his position better. Most sides over the years who win leagues or get promotion are solid defensively. Clean sheets are vital.

Ultimately, defenders are there to defend. I lean more towards a solid defensive left back who may not get forward but can defend, rather than an attacking full back who can’t defend and leaves us exposed.

Ideally, get someone else in Who can do both (like a Gibbo) but I appreciate that they are difficult to get hold of.

[PV1973]

1 hour ago, JRC said:

That's my view. Keikei got half a yard and a cross in 3 times against Gibbo, thats what higher league wide players can do. I think Montano is better as a wingback with a back 3. There are very few decent leftbacks in league 2. I only really saw 3 who stood out in games last season. One of those was Cohen Bramhall who really got exposed by Exeter in the second leg of the play-off game. All attacking full-backs leave a big gap behind them. Gibbo and Montano are at least quick enough to make up some ground.

The real question is whether Fitzpatrick is better than Montano. He certainly wasn't really rated by Campbell at Macc and needed players to leave and a couple of injuries to get game time. On the limit of a 45 minute appearance he's probably a little better positionally. Montano is much better in the air, quicker and offers more going forwards. FItzpartrick really struggled with C J Hamilton when he moved to the left. If he signed I think he would end up a cover as I see Montano as offering more overall but football is all about opinions. I'd still be interested to see Hurst at leftback before I spent money on someone who may end up as a reserve. Thought he showed decent aggresion in the Blackpool game and it was his main position at Blackpool. He's clearly quite strong despite his size.

Montano as a full back offers us a lot going forward and does do some good defensive work too. But personally I think the biggest issue we have had is not so much an opposition winger shifting a ball and managing to get a cross in from wide, but more so in that left back area where the opposition seem to manage to get runners in behind us who are then able to get in to the box or to the byline. IMO it does seem to happen much more often on that side.

Campbell-Gordon has a bit of a knock which is why he hasn't featured, which is a pity really because he needs some game time to show what he can do. With us having no recognised left back this could be his big chance.

[Boslem's Brazil]

6 hours ago, Diego Maradona said:

With what we’ve got, I might start with Crookes at left back as I feel that he’s more defensive minded. I understand that he’s not as comfortable on the ball, can’t push forward etc. as well as Monty. However, I think that he would stop more crosses, defend and keep his position better. Most sides over the years who win leagues or get promotion are solid defensively. Clean sheets are vital.

Ultimately, defenders are there to defend. I lean more towards a solid defensive left back who may not get forward but can defend, rather than an attacking full back who can’t defend and leaves us exposed.

Ideally, get someone else in Who can do both (like a Gibbo) but I appreciate that they are difficult to get hold of.

Completely disagree. Monty going to left back against Bradford was our first away win, and we looked far more threatening and balanced with him in the side. Look at the Championship playoff final, their left back won them promotion! 

The modern day fullback is a major attacking weapon, again look at how Liverpool set up. 

There are going to be times when he gets beaten, but that is the nature of the way we setup. I agree we need some competition, but I think Monty brings a lot to the table and I’m backing him to chip in with goals and assists this season. We’ll have this conversation again 10 games into the season, but my money is on Monty to deliver. 

[MBE]

11 hours ago, Diego Maradona said:

00:00 - First Fleetwood attack - where Smith stumbles - no Monty (anywhere). I appreciate that he has probably pushed on but he his not even in the clip trying to get back.

0:58 - Gave ball away in the corner - didn’t seem to work back to make up for it.

1:09 - Goal - winger ‘got a yard’ on Monty to cross. Like I said previously- he seems off the pace. For me, for promotion we need a left back with more pace and who can defend.

1:43 - Monty- out of position- near the half way line. Winger gets half a yard on Monty again. Mills, Legge and Smith left exposed. Another cross from our left. 

You do know its a pre season friendly???

I would be more concerned about the CB's ball watching and the RB not tucking in and communicating. I'd also be concerned about Joyce's lack of pace to cover the ground in those clips  BUT its a friendly for a reason ti get natch fitness i.e sharpen the football mind , plus the video clips are a cut and paste job with highlights so you can't see the pattern of play build up to see why players are in the position they found themselves in to know if they where out of position or not.

Fitzpatrick is nowhere near better than Monty Or Crookes for that matter.

 

[Diego Maradona]

It’s all about opinions. I see him as our weakness defensively. I think the opposition will.

Saw it in the friendlies and at times last season when playing left back.

I’m more than happy to be proved wrong. I want him and Vale to succeed. 

Time will tell.