Match Thread - Grimsby Town v Port Vale

[Hagrid]

I'm not just talking about yesterday. Two weeks ago after we'd beaten Crewe, Aspin was the dog's danglies. Last week after the heroics against Exeter we were climbing the league. This week we are getting relegated. There has to be a middle way.

 

I think Aspin made a serious mistake on Tuesday bringing Montano on. Whether he was fit or not, it sent the wrong message to Kanu who had done well on Saturday. His team selection yesterday looked negative but if you look at our away performances we have lost at Colchester, Tranmere and Carlisle having started with Pope and Miller.

 

It is a fact that without Oyeleke we haven't got a point this season. He is the key to the way we play. Is the fact that we have become so dependent on a lad few of us had heard of and came from non league a reflection on the manager or the rest of the team?

 

I thought we didn't do badly in the first half yesterday apart from the utter brain f*** by Clark. In the second half we didn't push on enough and the chances we did create were wasted.

 

Incidentally, it was interesting that having criticised Aspin for bringing on Montano on Tuesday with suspect fitness, he was getting criticised yesterday for not starting Whitfield, with suspect fitness!

 

The reason this forum seems 'bipolar' is that its not a unified hivemind. There's an array of opinions which feature more prominently dependent on the result.

 

Playing Pope alone was negative enough. Playing Anthony ******* Kay is taking the mickey. Not given Kanu an opportunity, bringing back Worrall, all baffling. We set up to not concede yesterday, and once the early mistake was made we were finished.

 

I think Aspo's doing OK. Just about meeting expectations. Its a tightrope, though. Thats why opinion is fluctuating, he's literally walking the line between being acceptable and unacceptable. He'd get more leeway if we hadn't gone on that 13 game winless run early this year, if we didn't have such an atrocious away record under him, if he didn't have a record of weird line ups.

 

Mine, and others' gripe, is that he's the victim of his own downfall. We all saw the line up, and even the most optimistic of fans would have been very concerned. If fans are picking up weaknesses in a line up (and being proven right) prior to kick off, its a very worrying sign.

[Danish Valiant]

I think you can say, that no matter if you're looking at the Premier League table, or the National League table, the longer up the table you get placement wise, the fever changes the manager makes week after week. Of course with the odd exception.

Because the further down the table you go, the manager thinks he has to get all Alan Turbin, trying to crack the magic combination that can get him 3 points.

Do I think it's right? Not necessarily. Can I understand the mechanism? Indeed I do!

Yesterday Aspin the changes he thought would work and some where forced. Did I agree with all the changes? No, and neither do I have to.

 

I think Tuesday will see even more changes, which I can understand! I think we'll see all the players that haven't played that much. Boot, Vassell, Quigley if he's ready, Daniels etc

 

For me the game Tuesday doesn't matter. It's all about Saturday for me!

[Paul6754]

Aspin's tactics almost worked yesterday but got derailed by an early, soft goal. Starting with 5 in midfield Vale stifled the opposition and controlled the game, were much the better team, played some great football and created a few chances which we didn't convert. The Conlon chance was a sweet, sweet, piece of football.

 

Because Vale were chasing the game Aspo took a midfielder off and bought on a forward (A move I was in favor of) hence the game became much more open and allowed them to get back into the game, find their passing game and create chances. Their 2nd goal came from Rawlinson not being tight enough on their No 28 who put in the cross. Same problem as Tuesday ie. Vale's defenders not being tight enough in the box.

 

I liked Phil Sproson's input yesterday but thought he was a tad harsh on Clarke, who's been outstanding for Vale this season.

[Phil]

I think you can say, that no matter if you're looking at the Premier League table, or the National League table, the longer up the table you get placement wise, the fever changes the manager makes week after week. Of course with the odd exception.

Because the further down the table you go, the manager thinks he has to get all Alan Turbin, trying to crack the magic combination that can get him 3 points.

Do I think it's right? Not necessarily. Can I understand the mechanism? Indeed I do!

Yesterday Aspin the changes he thought would work and some where forced. Did I agree with all the changes? No, and neither do I have to.

 

I think Tuesday will see even more changes, which I can understand! I think we'll see all the players that haven't played that much. Boot, Vassell, Quigley if he's ready, Daniels etc

 

For me the game Tuesday doesn't matter. It's all about Saturday for me!

 

Now that would be a surprise selection!

[Danish Valiant]

Now that would be a surprise selection!

 

I'm too tired!! Hornby of course!

[PV1973]

Jesus, you really don't like Miller at all do you?

Should he pass more, most certainly he bloody should, but not as much as you continually make out. A striker with a clear site of goal, especially when its easier to shoot than find a pass through 3,4 defenders, will always take the former, more so as nearly all of his chances are self created, and personally I don't have a problem with that. My problem is the sharpness of those shots. But again, when a side creates so little players, all players, will snatch at the crumbs that come their way, and he certainly seems to be doing a lot of that doesn't he, but like Pope they both desperately need a goal. Hell ythe whole team needs some goals.

But the defeat wasn't down to the guys up front, it was down to the lack of mobility and awareness of the midfield, once again really poor defending and for the umpteenth time baly organised and negative tactics from the boss.

I equally can not believe that anyone is questioning Clarke or what he brings to the team, okay the goal came down his side, but the lad has been quite superb since he arrived and to say he cost us the game as some dope suggested is again utter madness.

Lastly even though I accept it will happen more when we are playing badly and confidence dries up, but why oh why are we always slagging our players of, because collectively I bet even the players are surely questioning the way the boss has them playing-if only out of ear shot

Millers so frustrating when he won’t pass. He did it again yesterday when I think it was Pope who was in a great position for a simple pass. I have no problem with him shooting, but sometimes that’s not the best option and it’s that awareness when others are in a better position thats frustrating. But even though he’s not scoring, at the very least when he’s on the pitch he’s a nuisance to the opposition defence and providing another out ball.

 

I don’t think it’s as simple as blaming the midfield and mobility for our attacking problems. We do have more mobility in our squad than we have had for a while I think. When everyone’s fit we’ve got Conlon, manny, hardcastle, miller, Whitfield, Worrall, Hannant, Gibbons, Clark, Monty and Kanu. It’s just that yesterday that starting 11 was negative. We may have had more the play first half but we didn’t use it well enough because of the formation IMO.

 

I actually think since the start of the season Aspins changed how the team was set up to attack. We started off with Joyce and manny in the middle basically sitting, we had 2 wingers in Hannant and Worrall with the full backs Monty and Gibbons going past them with the intention of getting balls in the box. That didn’t even last 2 games because the Colchester game was such a poor performance overall and since then things have changed constantly. Different full backs, 3 at the back, wingbacks, 3 midfielders, 1 up front, until recently where we settled on a team. However all the time we’ve had the same issue of just putting aimless balls into pope with little variation on our play or delivery or the areas we get into to hurt teams. I’m not actually convinced that Aspin knows any other way of playing and when teams nullify it with bodies in the box or stopping the full backs going forward then we are stuck.

 

But I don’t think we play with out and out wingers anyway as I don’t believe any of the players there are proper wingers. Probably the most out and out winger in our squad is Monty and he wasn’t great in that role last season. Rawlinson isn’t an attacking full back so that threat is gone down that side. Clark will go forward, although not necessarily overlapping to link up with Hannant, to me he’s been more a player who likes to either run with the ball or make a direct run across the pitch to latch on to something. And Hannant seems to often deliver aimless balls into the box and I’m sure that must on instruction from the manager, get it in as often as possible and he doesn’t even give the left back time to get around him sometimes. So for me we’re still not not seeing much difference in our play, it’s just crosses into Pope from wherever the players are on the wing.

 

The elephant in the room is our left hand side. Forget the first mistake for a moment as there’s not much to be done about that. But their second goal highlighted what’s been happening this season and in particular this last few weeks. MK Dons were mainly down that side (Aspin even highlighted the joy their right back was having), Exeter used the space down there, scored from it and created a few good chances second half, even Crewe concentrated on getting behind us down there to pull back the ball across the face of goal in the first half, go even further back and remember Cambridge trying to do it to Monty first half by lumping it on him, Colchester scoring 2 goals off the back of Hannant not tracking runners at Monty, Tranmere targeting Monty too, FGR hitting balls on to hannant at left back. Also remember what we did to Cambridge in that first game, we played on their young right back and had a field day with him. There’s a pattern there and I think it’s getting more obvious as the games go by to the point now where teams have scored 2 goals from there this last week alone. Clark is an excellent player, but he’s learning the game and I still really believe that our full backs should be him on the left and Gibbons (when fit) on the right, that would give us much more energy on both sides and some more attacking options, but the full backs first job is to defend and I think sometimes Clarks positing isn’t always the best by being caught too far up the pitch or a little too far in front of the defensive line. Hannant isn’t always tracking runners either so when teams use that space behind Clark it’s pulling smith out of position too. It definitely needs addressing, but I’m not sure what the answer is with our current personnel, maybe it needs more work on the training ground. Imagine if that was Pugh getting exploited (Accrington last season) like that or Gibbons or Smith. There would be uproar on here.

 

Aspin's tactics almost worked yesterday but got derailed by an early, soft goal. Starting with 5 in midfield Vale stifled the opposition and controlled the game, were much the better team, played some great football and created a few chances which we didn't convert. The Conlon chance was a sweet, sweet, piece of football.

 

Because Vale were chasing the game Aspo took a midfielder off and bought on a forward (A move I was in favor of) hence the game became much more open and allowed them to get back into the game, find their passing game and create chances. Their 2nd goal came from Rawlinson not being tight enough on their No 28 who put in the cross. Same problem as Tuesday ie. Vale's defenders not being tight enough in the box.

 

I liked Phil Sproson's input yesterday but thought he was a tad harsh on Clarke, who's been outstanding for Vale this season.

I think that starting formation is too negative, I could understand it away at a top side, but not Grimsby. I think we should be looking to take the game to them. Having seen the second goal back Clark is nowhere near tight enough and looks slow to react and they play around him and get a very good cross in. So for me he’s played a big part in both goals and criticism is unfortunately warranted. But he’s a young player learning the game and things that will happen as they’ll be up and down. But frustratingly that’s the kind of chance we don’t se to create where a player gets to the byline.

 

What did Sproson have to say about it?

[Paul6754]

I think that starting formation is too negative, I could understand it away at a top side, but not Grimsby. I think we should be looking to take the game to them. Having seen the second goal back Clark is nowhere near tight enough and looks slow to react and they play around him and get a very good cross in. So for me he’s played a big part in both goals and criticism is unfortunately warranted. But he’s a young player learning the game and things that will happen as they’ll be up and down. But frustratingly that’s the kind of chance we don’t se to create where a player gets to the byline.

 

What did Sproson have to say about it?

 

When we played with 5 in midfield/1 up front we controlled the game, played good football, although probably created fewer chances but we could/should have scored. When we went to 4-4-2 the game became more open and Vale let Grimsby back in to it, lost the control we had in the first half.

 

It's a dilemma for managers whether to take a cautious approach from the start or go for it, particularly in away games. Yesterday we saw in one game the pro's and cons of both approaches. Seems to me that most managers take a cautious approach from the start, try to nick a goal and then get another one the break. In a league where virtually any team can beat another team these tactics are decent.

 

No big deal what Phil Sproson said, he made the point that Clarke had played a bad back pass at Crewe but got away with it but as he's as big a Vale fan as any of us it's easy to understand his frustration. Also he did say Clarke is learning and hopefully won't make the same mistake again. Stick it in Row Z next time Mitch!!!!

[Danish Valiant]

But I don’t think we play with out and out wingers anyway as I don’t believe any of the players there are proper wingers. Probably the most out and out winger in our squad is Monty and he wasn’t great in that role last season. Rawlinson isn’t an attacking full back so that threat is gone down that side. Clark will go forward, although not necessarily overlapping to link up with Hannant, to me he’s been more a player who likes to either run with the ball or make a direct run across the pitch to latch on to something. And Hannant seems to often deliver aimless balls into the box and I’m sure that must on instruction from the manager, get it in as often as possible and he doesn’t even give the left back time to get around him sometimes. So for me we’re still not not seeing much difference in our play, it’s just crosses into Pope from wherever the players are on the wing.

 

You're right! And that's because it's the winger who determines the full backs run. If the winger goes in field, he overlaps. If the winger stays wide, he goes in field. Easy as

[valiant_593]

It was a shocking team selection. To put that 11 out against that Grimsby side who were absalutley woeful is embarrassing. Never going to get close to winning a league football match picking sides like that.

[man in the pub]

A comment from my Grimsby Mate.

 

Vale were the first team this season Grimsby have played who never looked like scoring.

 

I think we were all surprised when we saw the line up Aspin had picked , too negative against a struggling team. Ok Lincoln away then go defensive and try and pick a point up. Surely you don't treat a struggling Grimsby side with the same respect. I know Aspin is learning his trade in the football league but whatever league you are in you don't make substitution errors like at the MK Dons game and a team selection cock up against a poor struggling Grimsby side. Apologies to my Grimsby mate.

 

Also to the Vale players, are you really that bad that without Manny (a recent signing from non league) we are woeful. Take a long hard look at yourselves guys because the answer to the question is it appears so. Love you to prove me wrong.

[bookworm]

Players who are toss a manager who can't find his arse with both hands and an owner who makes two short planks look intelligent I think that's enough to be going on with.

[PV1973]

We shouldn’t be that bad without Manny though. We may have had a lot of the ball yesterday but we we did little with it, so having the ball becomes irrelevant. I’m still not convinced Aspin knows the right way to use this squad.

[Biddulph_PV]

It is absolutely frightening just how abject the team appears to be without Manny. As talented a player he is, he is quite clearly injury prone or not physically able to meet the rigours of league football. We’ll be lucky to get 25 games from him this year IMO.

 

Which all leaves us in a bit of a pickle. My concern is that Aspin’s away selections invariably include zero pace and creativity - as someone said, almost Pulis-like but without the results.

 

Also, when was the last time somebody came to VP and sat back for the first 20-25 mins?? Nobody I can remember for a year or two now. Everybody seems to start fast and strong to give us something to think about.

[PV1973]

We played better their earlier this year with Tonge and Pugh in centre midfield ffs.

[valiant steve]

We shouldn't be losing to Grimsby. Defeats to teams like that will lead to another relegation dog fight. Tough game now on Saturday.