Brexit again...

[Andyregs]

 

To deny the deal made by Theresa May as it denies the principles that people voted leave in the first place ...Not traitors

 

 

So we’re still pretending the fantasy brexit was a viable negotiable option. Gotcha.

[Regal Beagle]

Leave voters had no idea of what the the process of leaving the EU would entail, what it would involve and what the costs would be and by the looks of it neither did many MP's or government officials.

 

Not only were we aware of the costs of leaving, your side actually lied through their teeth and said it would be a lot worse than it actually will be.

 

We still voted to leave.

 

No excuses. The majority have been betrayed.

 

I hope you support this precedent for tyranny the next time you are on the winning side of a democratic vote and our parliament overrules the will of people.

[Regal Beagle]

So we’re still pretending the fantasy brexit was a viable negotiable option. Gotcha.

 

The fantasy brexit is actually a reality and currently enshrined in law.

 

The fact is that the only thing fantasy about it is that Parliament never had any intention of seeing it through and will obviously delay it and eventually repeal it completely.

 

The fantasy is that we, the british people, get a meaningful say in how we wish to be governed. That was obviously too much to ask for.

[Regal Beagle]

Fair. Though Many are still arguing from the standpoint that a good deal was an opportunity missed, though they can’t actually say what it is (in the real world). I’m no fan of may or the Tories, but she had a poisoned chalice from the start. There was no way to achieve the brexit that the people who voted for it wanted, because it wasn’t possible. I always said that labour should just let the tories implode in the mess of their own making. There was no good outcome. Ive said from the start, it was a bad deal or a no deal. Nothing that has happened has changed that view.

 

I agree.

 

A deal is still possible but we have to leave without one first.

 

We've entered negotiations and explicitly told the other side that although we have an incredible hand, we're not going to use it. The EU have played our Government like a fiddle.

 

The reason that no deal is the best option is because it is not permanent. We can leave this month and in 6 months time when the EU comes crawling back, we can reopen proper negotiations.

 

This whole saga should show people exactly what is going on in this country and in Brussels and why it is important to leave it behind. Instead our politicians are shirking the responsibility we're desperate to give them and want to safeguard their salary by playing party politics.

 

We want an accountable parliament to make the government accountable. Unfortunately neither wants to be accountable.

[Paul6754]

Not only were we aware of the costs of leaving, your side actually lied through their teeth and said it would be a lot worse than it actually will be.

 

So your saying that you knew the cost of leaving and what leaving would entail the day you cast your vote, what a load of rubbish. No wonder you post that you're OK with MP's telling you lies.

 

Look up the definitions of a lie and a prediction, the former was made by the Johnson/Farage camp and the latter by the remain camp. Again, show evidence of a lie that was told by the remain group, but you've been asked before and all you can come up with are predictions/forecasts, ie something that might happen in the future, predictions/forecasts are not lies.

 

Interesting video about Boris's 350m to the NHS.

 

 

I hope you support this precedent for tyranny the next time you are on the winning side of a democratic vote and our parliament overrules the will of people.

 

You call the current government "Cruel and oppressive", that's funny.

[geosname]

The only reasonable/good thing about the whole brexit debacle was Cameron delivering on his manifesto pledge to have a vote.... I'm not saying he should have made the pledge, but he did and delivered on it.

After that it all went pear shape.

Both campaigns were run along general election lines.... promises and counter promises with a smattering of truth and reality.

The vote was in and everyone in a position to deliver retreated to their own party shell and, as usual, tried to defeat the other side along party lines = stalemate.

May keeps trying to push through a bad deal.

Jezza keeps looking for a general election opportunity.

Most don't seem to want the responsibility of running the country instead of following the lead and dominance of Europe.... and the protection it offers them politically of blaming someone else if it goes wrong, as it inevitably does.

We haven't negotiated anything, we have been told what we can have.... it would have been quicker and simpler to have junker as the banker, Noel Edmunds as speaker of the house, quick phone call and ask the question.... Deal.... or.... No deal.

[For Us All]

The only reasonable/good thing about the whole brexit debacle was Cameron delivering on his manifesto pledge to have a vote.... I'm not saying he should have made the pledge, but he did and delivered on it.

After that it all went pear shape.

Both campaigns were run along general election lines.... promises and counter promises with a smattering of truth and reality.

The vote was in and everyone in a position to deliver retreated to their own party shell and, as usual, tried to defeat the other side along party lines = stalemate.

May keeps trying to push through a bad deal.

Jezza keeps looking for a general election opportunity.

Most don't seem to want the responsibility of running the country instead of following the lead and dominance of Europe.... and the protection it offers them politically of blaming someone else if it goes wrong, as it inevitably does.

We haven't negotiated anything, we have been told what we can have.... it would have been quicker and simpler to have junker as the banker, Noel Edmunds as speaker of the house, quick phone call and ask the question.... Deal.... or.... No deal.

 

We've been run so long by the EU geo that this rabble wouldn't know what to do any more.Those that must be obeyed have been running the show for too long and seem to have our lot under the thumb?

[Fosse69]

The only reasonable/good thing about the whole brexit debacle was Cameron delivering on his manifesto pledge to have a vote.... I'm not saying he should have made the pledge, but he did and delivered on it.

After that it all went pear shape.

Both campaigns were run along general election lines.... promises and counter promises with a smattering of truth and reality.

The vote was in and everyone in a position to deliver retreated to their own party shell and, as usual, tried to defeat the other side along party lines = stalemate.

May keeps trying to push through a bad deal.

Jezza keeps looking for a general election opportunity.

Most don't seem to want the responsibility of running the country instead of following the lead and dominance of Europe.... and the protection it offers them politically of blaming someone else if it goes wrong, as it inevitably does.

We haven't negotiated anything, we have been told what we can have.... it would have been quicker and simpler to have junker as the banker, Noel Edmunds as speaker of the house, quick phone call and ask the question.... Deal.... or.... No deal.

What sort of deal will we get off Trump?

[geosname]

So your saying that you knew the cost of leaving and what leaving would entail the day you cast your vote, what a load of rubbish. No wonder you post that you're OK with MP's telling you lies.

 

Look up the definitions of a lie and a prediction, the former was made by the Johnson/Farage camp and the latter by the remain camp. Again, show evidence of a lie that was told by the remain group, but you've been asked before and all you can come up with are predictions/forecasts, ie something that might happen in the future, predictions/forecasts are not lies.

 

Interesting video about Boris's 350m to the NHS.

 

 

 

 

You call the current government "Cruel and oppressive", that's funny.

 

If you use a prediction to gain something or some advantage knowing the prediction may not be true..... it's a lie.

If politicians state that something WILL happen it's not a forecast or prediction it's a statement of fact.

The statement on the bus was wrong, the money we don't pay the EU will be available but may be spent on other things as well as/or instead of the NHS.... is it a lie or prediction/forecast?..... is it misleading? ... yes.... but so we're predictions on both sides.

I don't like politicians lying... but I accept they do.... if they didn't they wouldn't get elected.... the truth rarely buys votes in an election.

[geosname]

Just to clarify.....

An election decides which party makes the decisions of government... they get to decide what to do.

A referendum decides what all politicians should do.... regardless of party or belief.... the difference is huge.

Defy the will of more than half the population at your own risk..... but remember.... once you set a precedent it's there for all time.

 

If there is another vote.... god forbid..... it should be the same question.... and if it gets the same result the politicians start to fill their pants.

[tommytunstall]

And how did Ruth vote tonight?

You hit the nail firmly on the head...too many selfish remain MP's with fingers in all the pies...it pays them to advocate staying in...it doesn't pay ordinary workers and people who rely on wages. The manufacturing argument is strongly flawed this country is 80% service based it is up to big companies to compromise their prices around the tariffs...it is up to the money men to compromise frankly

 

Otherwise the rich dictatorship will continue and the country will continue to sink under massive immigration and depleted health services

 

Labour's Ruth Smeeth has lied to her Stoke on Trent North constituents...she said she would back the referendum result and now is slyly attempting to deny it...she should be voted out next election along with the other traitors without question

[TheSage]

Defy the will of more than half the population at your own risk

 

Correction. A large number of people did not vote. So it wasn't the will of more than half the population.

Just over 17m out of 66m voted to leave. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Because the country is so divided there ought to have been a threshold of over 60-65% before such a momentous change occurs.

[geosname]

Correction. A large number of people did not vote. So it wasn't the will of more than half the population.

Just over 17m out of 66m voted to leave. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Because the country is so divided there ought to have been a threshold of over 60-65% before such a momentous change occurs.

 

Correction..... as with all elections if you don't vote you don't count, you just suffer the consequences of others choices.... therefore the none voters can be split equally between in and out which give a more than 50% result.

I agree there should have been a threshold.... there should have been a lot of things... sadly there wasnt.

To have a second vote it should be exactly the same rules and same question to avoid circular arguments.

[Paul6754]

If you use a prediction to gain something or some advantage knowing the prediction may not be true..... it's a lie.

If politicians state that something WILL happen it's not a forecast or prediction it's a statement of fact.

The statement on the bus was wrong, the money we don't pay the EU will be available but may be spent on other things as well as/or instead of the NHS.... is it a lie or prediction/forecast?..... is it misleading? ... yes.... but so we're predictions on both sides.

I don't like politicians lying... but I accept they do.... if they didn't they wouldn't get elected.... the truth rarely buys votes in an election.

 

Geo, A prediction is a statement about what you think will happen in the future. A lie is a statement which you know to be untrue, ie make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. There is a difference.

[Paul6754]

Despite the vote I can’t see how no deal is actually off the table, as much as I want it to be. Surely it’s the default option if they keep disagreeing until the times up.

 

Yeh you're right Andy, No Deal isn't yet off the table and I'm just saying TM should never take it off 'cause if she does there's even less chance of her being able to negotiate what she wants with the EU. It isn't negotiation if you can't walk away.