Brexit again...

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

Maybe a 2nd referendum would be too decisive for leave and she didn't want to take a chance. She doesn't want a no deal brexit which means also she does not want a potential free trade deal and that we continue to endure EU rules

 

Maybe she wants a general election instead?

 

She wants to remain, let’s be honest, I know that would be a novel concept for an MP!

[TheSage]

So a democracy is only a democracy when it suits?

 

I voted remain but the way those that voted to leave is more than shabby.

 

Where did I say any of that?

 

I was correcting the statement made that said,"defy the will of more than half the population at your own risk" and simply pointed out that more than half the population did not vote to leave. What is wrong with that? 2-3 times as many did not vote at all or wanted to stay. Fact.

 

Where did I use the word "shabby"?

 

For a long time now I've favoured PR and a complete transformation of our antiquated voting system. Of course the Remain side won the vote. I don't dispute that. But as with general elections I don't think it's right and proper than any single party should be able to govern the country based on as little as c.40% of the vote or with less than 30% of the adult population voting for them. It's time for change. That was also why I thought there should have been a threshold of around 60-65% in the referendum which would have helped to prevent what we are seeing now - a divided society, polarised opinions, and everyone at each other's throats.

[Robbie Earle's Perm]

Where did I say any of that?

 

I was correcting the statement made that said,"defy the will of more than half the population at your own risk" and simply pointed out that more than half the population did not vote to leave. What is wrong with that? 2-3 times as many did not vote at all or wanted to stay. Fact.

 

Where did I use the word "shabby"?

 

For a long time now I've favoured PR and a complete transformation of our antiquated voting system. Of course the Remain side won the vote. I don't dispute that. But as with general elections I don't think it's right and proper than any single party should be able to govern the country based on as little as c.40% of the vote or with less than 30% of the adult population voting for them. It's time for change. That was also why I thought there should have been a threshold of around 60-65% in the referendum which would have helped to prevent what we are seeing now - a divided society, polarised opinions, and everyone at each other's throats.

 

Moving the goalposts on percentages that count is crazy, the majority should always be respected and their will actioned in a democracy. Saying it needs to be 60% threshold or any other figure as opposed to 50.1% of the vote is unfathomable and we might as well become a dictatorship.

 

If people choose not to use their right to vote that is their loss.

 

Shabby was my word for the way the leavers have been treated and that’s coming from a remainer.

[geosname]

I don't mind a % majority providing it is applied to both questions or answers depending how you view it..... otherwise it can be simply rigged by applying a high% rate.

So 65% vote to remain we remain 65% vote to leave we leave.... but it creates a mess if/when the % isn't reached.

If you don't vote you don't get a say, it's your choice, but those none votes should not be counted for either side unless you do it equally 50% each.

I am not in favour of forced voting..... or PR..... unless you get rid of the party system.

[For Us All]

Maybe a 2nd referendum would be too decisive for leave and she didn't want to take a chance. She doesn't want a no deal brexit which means also she does not want a potential free trade deal and that we continue to endure EU rules

 

Maybe she wants a general election instead?

 

Who knows what Labour want?

[geosname]

Who knows what Labour want?

 

Momentum?.......

[philpvfc]

Who knows what Labour want?

 

Corbyn only has 1 goal and that is to be PM. Whatever will help him on his goal he will do. Brexit is a successful **** up as far as he is concerned and the longer it goes on and more turmoil it brings to May will please him no end.

[TheSage]

I don't mind a % majority providing it is applied to both questions or answers depending how you view it..... otherwise it can be simply rigged by applying a high% rate.

So 65% vote to remain we remain 65% vote to leave we leave.... but it creates a mess if/when the % isn't reached.

If you don't vote you don't get a say, it's your choice, but those none votes should not be counted for either side unless you do it equally 50% each.

I am not in favour of forced voting..... or PR..... unless you get rid of the party system.

 

I don't disagree with much of that.

 

That was partly why I've come round to advocating a new electoral system in which parties have to co-operate and votes for smaller parties are not wasted. I know all the arguments for and against different systems and nothing is perfect but every time I watch PM's question time I despair at the level of debate and the lack of truthfulness and transparency. This confrontational style of politics needs changing as one party can run roughshod over everyone else's views with not much more than 40% of the popular vote.

 

Probably not a popular view I know but the last 2 1/2 years of watching the Commons in action has destroyed my last vestiges of respect for the whole lot of them, coming quite soon on top of the expenses scandal and their inflation busting pay rises.

 

Off hand I can't think of a similar chamber anywhere else in the world. Most countries don't have this very aggressive, winner takes all, confrontational approach but I realise it can make governing very difficult sometimes.

[Regal Beagle]

How long is the long term? Will I still be alive to see it?

 

I think we'd start seeing the benefits very shortly after a no deal brexit although as I've said before there would obviously be some disruption whilst we get on the right path.

[Regal Beagle]

Interesting caveat that - long term.

 

The problem I have with that is that most commentators, economists and even rapid left wing groups like the CBI and Bank of England, plus the governments own civil servants, all seem to suggest that economically it would be disastrous.

 

Clearly if we do leave I hope you are right and they are all wrong but it's not a risk I'd want to take. Gambling with people's jobs, incomes and living standards isn't something I'd want to do. It's based on hope and a wing and a prayer, whereas I prefer to look back over the past 50 years of our EU membership that has given us prosperity and growth and access to the single market. All that is at risk because you hope that things might turn out ok in the long run. That's no way to run a national economy or the well being of 66 million people. There is no certainty in a No Deal Brexit being successful. It's a shot in the dark and that's what bothers me.

 

Long term is not a caveat for me. I actually think that brexit cannot be stopped LONG TERM because more and more people will wake up to what the EU are doing eventually, in this country and others.

 

We will see the benefits of brexit the day we leave with no deal.

 

There will be economic disruptions because we've become lazy over the last few decades. Once we get back on track then there is no reason whatsoever that our Economy cannot be significantly better off than it is now.

 

Keep listening to your experts though and keep failing to address the concerns of the majority. There's 6000 replies to this thread about how it is economically impossible to thrive outside of the EU. That view point is demonstrably wrong - evidenced by the fact that there are many successful economies in the world that are not in the EU.

[geosname]

I think I can remember the experts saying we would crash and burn if we didn't join the Euro..... some said afterwards that we would have crashed and burned if we had joined the Euro.

[geosname]

I don't disagree with much of that.

 

That was partly why I've come round to advocating a new electoral system in which parties have to co-operate and votes for smaller parties are not wasted. I know all the arguments for and against different systems and nothing is perfect but every time I watch PM's question time I despair at the level of debate and the lack of truthfulness and transparency. This confrontational style of politics needs changing as one party can run roughshod over everyone else's views with not much more than 40% of the popular vote.

 

Probably not a popular view I know but the last 2 1/2 years of watching the Commons in action has destroyed my last vestiges of respect for the whole lot of them, coming quite soon on top of the expenses scandal and their inflation busting pay rises.

 

Off hand I can't think of a similar chamber anywhere else in the world. Most countries don't have this very aggressive, winner takes all, confrontational approach but I realise it can make governing very difficult sometimes.

 

The problem I see mate is that it would destroy the one thing that has a chance of keeping the rulers in check.... the opposition.

I think party politics is so deeply entrenched, even in the voters, that it would simply revert to the norm of name calling and abuse.... nice thought though... people working together for the good of the country... wow.

[geosname]

How long is the long term? Will I still be alive to see it?

 

That would depend on when you stop living Jean..... personaly I hope it's a long way off... this forum would be a little duller without you.

[MelbourneValiant]

No. Don't make it up. Those who don't vote are usually regarded as being content with the status quo. If they felt strongly about change then they would have voted.

 

 

 

This is completely false. I would be slightly more inclined to vote leave, but didn't. My good lady wold have been slightly ore inclined to stay. Our votes would have cancelled each other out so we didn't bother. We both now agree that leave won and that is how it should stay.

[MelbourneValiant]

Can’t argue with that' date=' Australia have the the best voting system which insists on people voting so everyone has their say. Way too late 3 years later.[/quote']

 

This is a god awful system in my eyes. I have to waste a Saturday of life voting for the d 1 c k heads that lie the least. If I am ill on the day and can't vote I get fined. Everyone should have a democratic right not to vote if they don't want to.