Evolution v Creationism

[SuperValiant1876]

The curve in dark flow points to our universe being connected to another one. Just one aspect of multiverse. It is difficult to refute god without believing in multiverse. A large number of other universes are needed to accept that this universe could just by accident have the right conditions for carbon based life etc to have occurred.

 

I actually do believe some multiverse theories although I find singularity hard to fathom, basically because it would mean a whole set of physical laws which are beyond anyone's thought. There are thought to be up to 26 dimensions also, we are in a 3d, we already know of 1d and 2d and logic tells us that there could be 4d, 5d etc...

 

How is it difficult to refute God whilst not believing in multi-verse Warren? I am sure there are plenty of Atheists who would disagree with you there. I am just interested in your reasoning.

[Formby Valiant]

What about paralell universes? Is there one where Vale are winning the Premiership?

[SuperValiant1876]

What about paralell universes? Is there one where Vale are winning the Premiership?

 

The possibilities are endless, it has been said if you can think of it then it's probably out there somewhere. I think the universe where Vale win the Premiership is this one, we just haven't reached that point of time....yet.... :D

[Regal Beagle]

Watch Richard Dawkins on youtube, some are well funny.

 

"To give you an example of the magnitude of the error, to believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old, when in fact we know the world is 4.6 billion years old, is equivalent to believing that the width of North America from New York to San Francisco is less than 10 yards. So to believe this you have to be either incredibly ignorant or insane."

[EricHamesis]

So its just a theory then?.... about as much proof as god.... not really an explanation more a good guess without proof

We both know you're just being silly there.

There's plenty of evidence for evolution.

I don't know of any evidence for god.

Evolution does not make a guess at how life started, but given the starting point of things that can reproduce, with random mutations, it explains the variety of life from then on.

[geosname]

We both know you're just being silly there.

 

I know..... at my age you have to take every opportunity you can.....

[Warren]

Does it fascinate you in a general way or specifically?.... as in mankind..... or everything we know [or think we know] and everything we dont know.

The fascinating factor that interests me is why man looks for an explanation of/for everything.

In its simplest form each defeats its self..... for evolution to take place there must be something to evolve from.... and who created the creator of/for creationism.... because we dont know the answer we evolve theories to fill the blanks.

It was a fact that the world was flat.... until someone disproved it

The universe revolved around the earth was also an accepted fact.... for a while

Newtons law of gravity was unshakeable..... until someone shook it

Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light?.... well maybe it can.

What we think we know now is the accepted explanation to fill the void.... what we think we know tomorrow... etc etc

I dont buy the language is mathematics.... that may be the language we use to try to understand it or explain it.

 

Further debate

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/02/08/a_talk_with_mario_livio/?page=full

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis

 

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/16-is-the-universe-actually-made-of-math#.UPdQCWehH8c

 

I am not saying I am on board with these. However, I find another linked field re hologram theory very interesting and also the concept that information can never be destroyed. http://rense.com/general69/holoff.htm

[Paul6754]

Further debate

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/02/08/a_talk_with_mario_livio/?page=full

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis

 

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/16-is-the-universe-actually-made-of-math#.UPdQCWehH8c

 

I am not saying I am on board with these. However, I find another linked field re hologram theory very interesting and also the concept that information can never be destroyed. http://rense.com/general69/holoff.htm

 

These theories are just Mathematicians trying to move their subject up the league table of science to keep it alive.

 

The Big Bang Theory is the most compelling hypothesis to describe the beginning of the Universe as we know it but who knows what comprised the Universe before the Big Bang. There is evidence for the Big Bang Theory and it is well accepted in the scientific community.

 

I favour evolution over creationism, I'd like to think there is a god but none of it makes sense to me. The science to prove and trace evolution at the molecular/atomic level has only been available for the last 20 years and it may take another 100 years at least before the puzzle is assembled and understood more fully.

[aspins-revenge]

I quite like that Penny from the Big Bang Theory, and the little one with the big maracas.

 

They make me feel all neanderthal, which is in itself proof of evolution, or, in my case, the lack of it.

[SuperValiant1876]

Well I hope you can see from my posts that I don't think it is God. I'm merely making the point that evolution, whilst I subscribe to it still doesn't provide the complete answer.

 

On one side, what was before the big bang? All that energy didn't creat itself did it?

 

On the other who made God? And what came before

 

Its imponderable beyond a certain point. I was really playing Devils advocate as whilst I agree with what you are saying, you can still never prove it. My mind struggles with both concepts ultimately, which is what came before? And what came before that.

 

We see the phrase, in the beginning, but to me there could never have been a beginning beacuse there must have always been something to create the next level.

 

Anyway, I'm boring myself now.

 

If you find the answer let me know.

 

Here is an answer for you from Stephen Hawking.

 

 

“When people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them that the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the big bang, so there is no time for god to make the universe in. It’s like asking directions to the edge of the earth; The Earth is a sphere; it doesn’t have an edge; so looking for it is a futile exercise. We are each free to believe what we want, and it’s my view that the simplest explanation is; there is no god. No one created our universe,and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization; There is probably no heaven, and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe, and for that I am extremely grateful.”

[Formby Valiant]

Good explanation and I'm not going to argue with Stephen Hawking. I understand what he says about the earth having no edge. But that doesn't mean there's nothing beyond it, because we all know there's the whole universe and whilst you can't fall off the edge, if you go in a different direction I.e. Straight up you can leave the planet.

 

I'm not in anway saying that I need prove that there isn't a God. I personally don't believe.

 

I understand the scientific explanations and go along with them, I just struggle with the concept that if everything sprung from one particle explosion, where did the particle come from? And what made it explode?

[Paul6754]

 

I understand the scientific explanations and go along with them, I just struggle with the concept that if everything sprung from one particle explosion, where did the particle come from? And what made it explode?

 

There was an incredible series of four documentaries on the Science Channel about the Origin of the Universe. I think the hypothesis is that before The Big Bang Theory the Universe was in a hot and dense state which expanded and cooled rapidly and allowed energy to form sub-atomic particals and eventually the primordial elements hydrogen, helium and lithium. These primordial elements over many, many years formed the 200 odd elements known on earth today that everything is made out of.

 

Einstein's theory of relativity relates energy to mass in the equation; E = mc2 (superscript)

[Warren]

Here is an answer for you from Stephen Hawking.

 

 

“When people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them that the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the big bang, so there is no time for god to make the universe in. It’s like asking directions to the edge of the earth; The Earth is a sphere; it doesn’t have an edge; so looking for it is a futile exercise. We are each free to believe what we want, and it’s my view that the simplest explanation is; there is no god. No one created our universe,and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization; There is probably no heaven, and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe, and for that I am extremely grateful.”

 

I like this quote and use it to tease Christians in pub talk sometimes. But it is a media throw away because Hawkins believes in multiverse. Time may be still and space infinitely small in the cycle of this universe but all the other universes are still there with or without time.

 

Also from a Buddhist perspective Hawking may not have explored his own mind. Like many he places an emphasis in all he does on the clarity and calculating mind. He is not in touch with the heart felt aspects of his mind as much as he should be. In him this is worse than most of the population because of his science background. He explored the reality of space but perhaps not the reality of himself and the elements of him that may be indestructible and survive death. One point of meditation is to remove all the habits and clouds that mask the true nature of mind and come to see this in full. Another issue here is that no one can have a conversation with him and his condition means communication is limited to him saying things through his electric voice and giving limited physical responses.

[SuperValiant1876]

I like this quote and use it to tease Christians in pub talk sometimes. But it is a media throw away because Hawkins believes in multiverse. Time may be still and space infinitely small in the cycle of this universe but all the other universes are still there with or without time.

 

Also from a Buddhist perspective Hawking may not have explored his own mind. Like many he places an emphasis in all he does on the clarity and calculating mind. He is not in touch with the heart felt aspects of his mind as much as he should be. In him this is worse than most of the population because of his science background. He explored the reality of space but perhaps not the reality of himself and the elements of him that may be indestructible and survive death. One point of meditation is to remove all the habits and clouds that mask the true nature of mind and come to see this in full. Another issue here is that no one can have a conversation with him and his condition means communication is limited to him saying things through his electric voice and giving limited physical responses.

 

I think within his quote he makes it abundantly clear that he does not believe in an afterlife Warren and just because someone does not believe in an afterlife does not mean they have not explored themselves. I also believe when I die I will be buried and the fauna and flora can live off me as i have lived off them throughout my life. I am currently reading a brief history of time written by Hawking and as of yet there is no mention of multiverse, It seems the multiverse theory was denounced at his own 70th birthday party too http://carm.org/atheism-and-the-multiverse

[JOHNNYAITCH]

It's just so easy to attack though. Does the good book not advocate slavery, also the mass murder of everyone in Jerusalem and Ethiopia? Or how about God ordering a lion to kill someone who ignored his instruction? Or the killing of people from 7 nations who did not believe?

 

Sounds like a great book that promotes forgiveness and love to all men? Really? What do you really understand about Christianity JA?

 

Well the Bible is very complex and I guess passages can be picked out in isolation to support or put down all sorts of arguments

 

Broadly what you refer to is I think Old Testament which is not what Christianity is about..Christianity is about New testament. The Old Testamant is the Hebrew Bible and is the basis for Judaism not Christianity...although there are references to the Old Testament in the New Testament. At least that's my understandiong

 

I was raised a Christian but lost what faith that I had,my brother is a devout Christian and his wife is a CofE minister(which I reckon makes her something of an expert) and I have spent countless occasions talking issues over with the both of them..doesn't make me an expert but gives me some insight into what they believe and what the CofE is all about.