Brexit again...

[geosname]

No idea !! It baffles me considering there are no tangible benefits for leaving.

 

Who knows? Lots of different answers, probably the one that tipped it was a protest against the establishment, especially the areas left behind. Leaving the EU will make no difference, As for the bulk of the vote from Tory areas probably the answer would be in the Mail.

 

This is why the great divide will be difficult to bridge.....

 

No idea?...... after pages of debate and explanation you have no idea?

 

Who knows?.... 17,000,000+ people know, parliament should know, the people with opposing views should know if they want to counter the argument.

 

I would suggest the simple answer to the overall question of why people voted the way they did was money... pure and simple.

 

Remainers voted because they think there will be more staying in the EU.

Leavers voted because they think there will be more leaving the EU.

 

Neither side knows for certain which is correct but are determined to prove the other wrong.

 

Sadly we are moving away from the "no idea" and "who knows" to the far more apathetic and possibly dangerous... "who cares".

 

Who cares why you voted remain...... we won.

Who cares why you voted leave... we don't respect it.

 

Stuck in the middle is parliament, rightly so, in the very unusual position of knowing what the majority of people want, instead of telling the people what they will get, and spending time and money trying not to deliver it without appearing to do so.

 

The problem with referendums for politicians is that they start with the answer... then have to work out how to deliver.... which often leads to another referendum because they don't like the answer they started with.

Politicians can not lead from the rear... although some have had quite successful careers doing just that.

[TheSage]

Regarding the Grayling statistics, yes it was hyperbole (guilty as charged) but he's cost the UK taxpayer over £2.7 billion with his failed schemes and incompetence so that one man alone has squandered far far more than the £100 million a year moving across Europe.

And the key point here that was I trying to get across was that he is one of the people you are placing your faith in to sort out Brexit!

 

I agree about the stupidity of travelling across Europe for meetings. It's daft. It actually costs about 0.1% of the budget so it's not that significant but like you I think any example of inefficiency should be addressed.

I think the problem is that it was enshrined in a treaty way back in 1992 and because it's in the terms of the treaty it's hard to change easily. France wants it there and so currently Macron won't budge.

I don't think it's a matter of MPs voting for or against it because most EU MPs want it stopped. As far as I can tell only our UK MPs abstained from this country.

 

In terms of Juncker and Tusk being "unelected bureaucrats" it is simply not true.

Juncker, for example, is nominated by the Council (on which our PM sits), taking into account the European election results. Parliament then has to vote on the appointment so he/she needs over half the subsequent votes to get appointed. Parliament can also get rid of the President if they think he/she is doing a bad job. It's a fixed 5 year appointment and by tradition the post usually swaps between a smaller state and a larger one.

It really is not undemocratic and though its not perfect neither is our system in the UK.

[Aussie Rules]

...I've never seen British politics so fractured and factionalised as it is now...

 

I think it has always been that way HW. Only now as a consequence of the post referendum behaviour in Westminster they have been well and truly exposed for what they are - individually and collective in it for themselves.

 

They are desperately trying to stop the people taking away their 'toys'.

[Fosse69]

Regarding the Grayling statistics, yes it was hyperbole (guilty as charged) but he's cost the UK taxpayer over £2.7 billion with his failed schemes and incompetence so that one man alone has squandered far far more than the £100 million a year moving across Europe.

And the key point here that was I trying to get across was that he is one of the people you are placing your faith in to sort out Brexit!

 

I agree about the stupidity of travelling across Europe for meetings. It's daft. It actually costs about 0.1% of the budget so it's not that significant but like you I think any example of inefficiency should be addressed.

I think the problem is that it was enshrined in a treaty way back in 1992 and because it's in the terms of the treaty it's hard to change easily. France wants it there and so currently Macron won't budge.

I don't think it's a matter of MPs voting for or against it because most EU MPs want it stopped. As far as I can tell only our UK MPs abstained from this country.

 

In terms of Juncker and Tusk being "unelected bureaucrats" it is simply not true.

Juncker, for example, is nominated by the Council (on which our PM sits), taking into account the European election results. Parliament then has to vote on the appointment so he/she needs over half the subsequent votes to get appointed. Parliament can also get rid of the President if they think he/she is doing a bad job. It's a fixed 5 year appointment and by tradition the post usually swaps between a smaller state and a larger one.

It really is not undemocratic and though its not perfect neither is our system in the UK.

In the scale of things £100M is not a lot, part of the symbolism of a united Europe after centuries of war. Brussels in Belgium known as the Cockpit of Europe, with Strasborg a border city that has changed hands many times between Germany and France.

[TheSage]

so a straight question to the remainers, why do you think 51.9%- 17,410,742 people voted to leave, and not the bus answer please

 

I'm not a Leaver so you'll have to ask them that but I would hazard a guess that the reasons varied from immigration and cost, to the NHS and sovereignty.

About two-thirds over the age of 65 voted to leave, yet 70% of 18-24 year olds wanted to stay.

 

I have friends in Belgium and France and I travel to Europe a lot. Being in the EU has made it cheaper and easier and quicker for me to visit them and to go on holiday, and I value that a lot. My daughter has studied in the Netherlands and has also benefited from these closer links. None of this will end but it's going to be a bit more awkward and a bit more expensive and for what purpose?

Above all, of course, being a member of the world's most successful market has given us huge economic growth and wealth over the past few decades and that's something not to be taken for granted. The EU has been an economic powerhouse and lifted us out of the economic mess we were in in the sixties and early seventies. Giving it up on the blind hope that we might be able to do better outside is daft to me.

 

The other reason why I think many UK citizens are anti-Europe is because (a) we've taken the benefits for granted and not publicised them enough (b) being an island we don't mix as readily with people on the Continent who cross borders and mix daily, and © they don't have a very anti-EU right wing press in Europe as we do have in this country. The Express, Mail, Sun and Telegraph have been anti EU for many years and churn out a constant barrage of jingoistic propaganda every day, yet hardly ever mention the positives we get from it.

[whotobeakiller]

Being in Europe has also plunged people into poverty and debt

 

Being in Europe has pushed up rents and mortgage costs

 

Being in Europe has raised car taxes and car insurances

 

Being in Europe has taken well needed monies away from local government

 

Being in Europe has put a lot of smaller business out of business

 

Only snobs whom have had it good for so long and able to escape the realities of what high end immigration has done to working class communities can appreciate what a leave vote really means. Those insulated from the realities are simply too ignorant and stupid to even begin to contemplate and so will repeat their contemptuous and ignorant rhetoric

 

 

The majority of people will win in the end and that's not the likes of people who travel over Europe on a whim and live in plush four bedroom houses^^^^

[whotobeakiller]

Who knows? Lots of different answers, probably the one that tipped it was a protest against the establishment, especially the areas left behind. Leaving the EU will make no difference, As for the bulk of the vote from Tory areas probably the answer would be in the Mail.

 

5 Million Labour voters voted for leave...how many do you think will now be stupid enough to vote for labour at the next GE?

[TheSage]

Labour will probably win the next Election - and that's largely down to the stupidity of those on the right who have divided the Tories.

[whotobeakiller]

Absolute rubbish...Labour have divided their own party and are a complete and utter shambles. Tories will scrape through as they always do however both will lose seats at the next General Election but it won't be in constituencies where people are rich and generally well off

[Heatwave]

Absolute rubbish...Labour have divided their own party and are a complete and utter shambles. Tories will scrape through as they always do however both will lose seats at the next General Election but it won't be in constituencies where people are rich and generally well off

 

Don't think so; even though Labour is just as fractured and factionalised as the Tories they weren't hanging out their dirty washing in public anywhere near as much as the Conservatives in government. Hung parliament again, this time with Labour as the largest party.

[Fosse69]

5 Million Labour voters voted for leave...how many do you think will now be stupid enough to vote for labour at the next GE?

 

Much will depend on whether they push hard for a confirmatory referendum or a scrapping of Brexit, 2 million new voters to play for.

[TheSage]

Being in Europe has also plunged people into poverty and debt

 

Being in Europe has pushed up rents and mortgage costs

 

Being in Europe has raised car taxes and car insurances

 

Being in Europe has taken well needed monies away from local government

 

Being in Europe has put a lot of smaller business out of business

 

Only snobs whom have had it good for so long and able to escape the realities of what high end immigration has done to working class communities can appreciate what a leave vote really means. Those insulated from the realities are simply too ignorant and stupid to even begin to contemplate and so will repeat their contemptuous and ignorant rhetoric

 

 

The majority of people will win in the end and that's not the likes of people who travel over Europe on a whim and live in plush four bedroom houses^^^^

 

Thank you. I've never been called a contemptuous and ignorant snob before.

 

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

Our annual contribution to the EU budget is about £8.9 billion, about 1.1% of what we spend.

We get free access to the world's biggest trading market. It's a bargain.

 

I think you will find that austerity and cutbacks in the last ten years have more truthfully affected people in the UK.

 

I don't travel around Europe on a whim. Neither do I live in a plush four bedroom house.

My grandfather was a coal miner and I was largely brought up in a tiny terraced house with no bathroom or central heating - by a single parent.

Not that it has anything to do with you.

My parents left school at 11 to go out to work but I was fortunate in being the first person in my family ever to go to university.

 

I used to go to Europe a lot for my job, often giving up my weekends and holidays to do so.

Nowadays we try to go to France on holiday every year, occasionally a few days at Easter as well if we can afford it.

So in the past 30 years I've met a lot of people throughout Europe and I can put your doubts to rest. They do not breathe fire, have two heads or are green in colour. They are just like you and me. Well me, maybe not you.

 

My first job was working at the sewage works. I've also been a postman, delivery driver and unemployed for a while.

 

You really do spout some rubbish.

[Aussie Rules]

It's all like a whirlpool. Given the EU have generously? agreed extensions is it possible the EU don't want the UK to leave - or is it all about potential monies lost consequence a UK withdrawal i.e. the EU doesn't want UK membership per se, just its money?

[whotobeakiller]

They are just like you and me. Well me, maybe not you.

 

I rest my case, pompous, arrogant self-conceited

 

My first job was working at the sewage works. I've also been a postman, delivery driver and unemployed for a while.

 

I've worked as well...haven't been to university but that doesn't mean my opinion is less valid than yours..probably mine is more valid

 

How possibly could you have come to the conclusion I was taking about you

 

Who pays for the contributions into the EU? Working people

 

Who subsidizes low paying employers when paying out tax credits? Working people

 

Who subsidies migrants when they fall in and out of work? Working people

 

 

Working people whose wages are undercut, who can seldom afford to go a day out in Blackpool, let alone France and Italy

 

Working people whom cannot afford to get on the property ladder. Working people who have to pay high rents, council tax and taxes even though services are ruthlessly cut after councils wasted millions on HS2.

 

Access to the biggest market is good for greedy corporations not working people...do you think that the huge profits companies make actually trickles down to the bottom end it doesn't.

 

But then you already know this don't you? BTW I came from similar background to yourself...not that it has anything to do with you

[whotobeakiller]

Don't think so; even though Labour is just as fractured and factionalised as the Tories they weren't hanging out their dirty washing in public anywhere near as much as the Conservatives in government. Hung parliament again, this time with Labour as the largest party.

 

If you want a great advocate for Labour then look no further than David Lammy whom is the most arrogant contemptuous anti white person

and anti working class MP you can find on this planet. Just look at his hatchet job on Battern this morning on the political programme

 

If people in Stoke on Trent voted leave and still vote for these arrogant self serving parasites I will lose all hope in the UK human race if I haven't in it's most part already