Brexit again...

[Aussie Rules]

They are going hoping it's not still there when they crawl back..... your radio is fine mate.... it's just the crap broadcast.

 

The poor diddums must think they've earned a holiday. Never mind the OxBridge Civil Servants will keep an eye on their political diaries whilst they are away.

[Paul6754]

Not relevant so I wont answer.

 

So Regal, that's admitting that your often rolled out reason for Leaving, "We will get our sovereignty back" is a load of cobblers.

 

So why exactly did you vote Leave and why do you still continue to support Leaving the EU.

[geosname]

I wanted to remain but support leaving because I think it's the only way out of the mess...... followed by another vote.

[For Us All]

Sage..... I agree it's been a total screw up from start to finish, or to where we are now because it's nowhere near finished.

From the over simplistic yes no question to the vindictive votes and beyond.

The biggest fear I have about the situation, apart from the political aftermath, is that we decide by default. The two prominent options seem to be no deal or a customs union, which I think came closest to a consensus,.

The no deal scenario has it's obvious in sight problems, not impossible and probably not impractical but certainly painful.

Customs union is more covertly dangerous. The EU negotiate our trade deals but we don't take part in those negotiations, they agree the deals for their benefit not ours and we have to comply. The reciprocating countries are not, repeat not, bound by law to take our goods but we are obligated to take theirs.... which in effect means legally we have to take goods, say from Vietnam, but Vietnam is not legally bound to accept ours.

I think that could be extremely dangerous to our economy with the added disadvantage of giving the EU more power over us than they do now... it's actually worse than being in the EU... it throws sovereignty away with a smile.

Sadly I think that the situation is so corrosive that MPs will grasp it as a way forward to end the mess they have created...... I think it was the closest to winning of the vindictive votes and that alone blows Mays deal out of the water.

There should have been a long discussion about the costs, consequences and benefits of brexit...... no project fear or euphoric rhetoric.... just hard fact discussion... there wasn't, just gung ho we will win crap.

The people voted on the information they had..... the voters weren't wrong whichever side they were on therefore neither side was right.... the voters didn't screw this up the politicians did.... partly by making it a party issue not a national conundrum.... the sooner the electorate grasp this nettle the better the chance of uniting the people if not the politicians.

 

In a nutshell,delaying statics from the start by the EU and a remainer parliament to overturn the result of the referendum.

[Jacko51]

In a nutshell,delaying statics from the start by the EU and a remainer parliament to overturn the result of the referendum.

 

How about incompetence from the start by the guy put in charge of the negotiations?

 

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/09/david-davis-in-the-end-there-was-nothing-behind-the-swagger

[Erniemossrules]

How about incompetence from the start by the guy put in charge of the negotiations?

 

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/09/david-davis-in-the-end-there-was-nothing-behind-the-swagger

 

The problem was Teresa May took advice from Ollie Robins and let him and the EU dictate the policy.

Being a remainder he diluted the deal and she tried to satisfy both remainders and leavers and in the end satisfied neither of them.

Now she is running to Labour to try to get her deal through but Comrade Corbyn is happy because he is winning ground because of her incompetence.

We will end up with the Crankies Corbyn and Sturgeon running the country into the ground.

[geosname]

The problem was Teresa May took advice from Ollie Robins and let him and the EU dictate the policy.

Being a remainder he diluted the deal and she tried to satisfy both remainders and leavers and in the end satisfied neither of them.

Now she is running to Labour to try to get her deal through but Comrade Corbyn is happy because he is winning ground because of her incompetence.

We will end up with the Crankies Corbyn and Sturgeon running the country into the ground.

 

It could be the real problem started before Cameron even contemplated the referendum..... nobody wanted to talk about the EU where it was heading, the corruption and waste or anything else....... or leaving it.

There were the odd arguments and spats but no real dialog with the people about what was going on in the EU...... the good things or the bad things about it.... or the consequences of leaving it..... that didn't even happen in the run up to the vote.... just rhetoric and condemnation.... mainly about the opposite view you were supporting.

[Heatwave]

Another possible consequence of this cluster **** is the political aftermath of whatever decision is finally come to.... leave, remain, second referendum or any other possibility....

I think the political landscape could shift dramatically seeing a rise of fringe parties, especially but not exclusively in leave areas... the new brexit party being one but I doubt the last before a general election.... let's not forget the new independent party of rebels who could attract disenfranchised sitting Mps.. although the public at large may well forget them.

The worry is the far right and far left... both disastrous options that could easily benefit from the chaos.

I'm all in favour of shaking the party system out of its complacency but an extreme party on either end of the spectrum is dangerous to everyone.

I like the idea of elected members representing the constituency first and foremost, getting to parliament and forming a consensus nationally that represents their constituency as best they can..... no whips.... no coercion... no threats of expulsion or position loss etc etc...... just agreement from countrywide local representatives about what's best for the whole, not what's best to gain , regain or hold on to power.... yeh right I hear you say, that won't happen.... and sadly I agree it won't.

 

OTT definitions.

 

Far left..... everyone is the same..... state control of everything.

 

Far right.... greed is acceptable... grab what you can.

 

I wouldn't disagree with your analysis but our electoral system mitigates against smaller parties, hence the main players on left and right will attempt to take over the two main parties. We've already seen entryism succeed in the Labour Party and if the Tories were foolish enough to try a similar experiment in electing a new leader (after May inevitably resigns) you'd see a far right version of Momentum take charge.

 

I've never seen British politics so fractured and factionalised as it is now. I fear where it could end; all we need now is a charismatic right winger to emerge and it's Germany in 1933 all over again.

[For Us All]

It could be the real problem started before Cameron even contemplated the referendum..... nobody wanted to talk about the EU where it was heading, the corruption and waste or anything else....... or leaving it.

There were the odd arguments and spats but no real dialog with the people about what was going on in the EU...... the good things or the bad things about it.... or the consequences of leaving it..... that didn't even happen in the run up to the vote.... just rhetoric and condemnation.... mainly about the opposite view you were supporting.

 

I'll give you one perfect example of waste (£130m a year),when moving parliament to Strasbourg every month.Just one of the 27 countries vetoed scrapping this waste of money.You can guess who it is.

[geosname]

I'll give you one perfect example of waste (£130m a year),when moving parliament to Strasbourg every month.Just one of the 27 countries vetoed scrapping this waste of money.You can guess who it is.

 

If it wasn't the French I would guess it would be the French...... or alternatively the French?

[whotobeakiller]

Sage..... I agree it's been a total screw up from start to finish, or to where we are now because it's nowhere near finished.

From the over simplistic yes no question to the vindictive votes and beyond.

The biggest fear I have about the situation, apart from the political aftermath, is that we decide by default. The two prominent options seem to be no deal or a customs union, which I think came closest to a consensus,.

The no deal scenario has it's obvious in sight problems, not impossible and probably not impractical but certainly painful.

Customs union is more covertly dangerous. The EU negotiate our trade deals but we don't take part in those negotiations, they agree the deals for their benefit not ours and we have to comply. The reciprocating countries are not, repeat not, bound by law to take our goods but we are obligated to take theirs.... which in effect means legally we have to take goods, say from Vietnam, but Vietnam is not legally bound to accept ours.

I think that could be extremely dangerous to our economy with the added disadvantage of giving the EU more power over us than they do now... it's actually worse than being in the EU... it throws sovereignty away with a smile.

Sadly I think that the situation is so corrosive that MPs will grasp it as a way forward to end the mess they have created...... I think it was the closest to winning of the vindictive votes and that alone blows Mays deal out of the water.

There should have been a long discussion about the costs, consequences and benefits of brexit...... no project fear or euphoric rhetoric.... just hard fact discussion... there wasn't, just gung ho we will win crap.

The people voted on the information they had..... the voters weren't wrong whichever side they were on therefore neither side was right.... the voters didn't screw this up the politicians did.... partly by making it a party issue not a national conundrum.... the sooner the electorate grasp this nettle the better the chance of uniting the people if not the politicians.

 

When people voted to leave they wanted no half baked deals. That would simply be a treaty and an advantage to the EU...it is common sense that coming out but staying in would lead to permutations such as what you have stated.

 

That is why we needed to walk away and be prepared to negotiate for a free trade deal...the emphasis would have been on the EU to do this to level up the growing uncertainty from business within Europe whom would have actively lobbied their MEP's thus putting pressure on the rest of the EU 27 and thus the hierarchy within the EU

 

Instead we have had a tunnel visioned focus on what we stand to 'lose' in trade...thus ignoring the methods we could adopt in negotiating for a free trade deal.

 

We need to remember what we voted leave for in the first place and what the question was. Big Business should have been consulted from the very start to plan and come to a consensus how WTO can work for them. We are talking about increases in tariffs and is purely a mathematical issue what Business could simply have worked around themselves.

 

What we now know is the EU is a true dictatorship and the only way it will implode is if countries start to walk away

[Bald Eagle]

When people voted to leave they wanted no half baked deals. That would simply be a treaty and an advantage to the EU...it is common sense that coming out but staying in would lead to permutations such as what you have stated.

 

That is why we needed to walk away and be prepared to negotiate for a free trade deal...the emphasis would have been on the EU to do this to level up the growing uncertainty from business within Europe whom would have actively lobbied their MEP's thus putting pressure on the rest of the EU 27 and thus the hierarchy within the EU

 

Instead we have had a tunnel visioned focus on what we stand to 'lose' in trade...thus ignoring the methods we could adopt in negotiating for a free trade deal.

 

We need to remember what we voted leave for in the first place and what the question was. Big Business should have been consulted from the very start to plan and come to a consensus how WTO can work for them. We are talking about increases in tariffs and is purely a mathematical issue what Business could simply have worked around themselves.

 

What we now know is the EU is a true dictatorship and the only way it will implode is if countries start to walk away

 

Agreed. In any negotiation you have to have a walk away moment if the deal does not work for both parties.

 

One of the early strap lines was ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’. Whatever happened to that common sense viewpoint?

[Erniemossrules]

The poor diddums must think they've earned a holiday. Never mind the OxBridge Civil Servants will keep an eye on their political diaries whilst they are away.

 

They should have locked the doors to Parliament and said they couldn’t come out until they agreed a deal.

No probs.

[Fosse69]

When people voted to leave they wanted no half baked deals. That would simply be a treaty and an advantage to the EU...it is common sense that coming out but staying in would lead to permutations such as what you have stated.

 

That is why we needed to walk away and be prepared to negotiate for a free trade deal...the emphasis would have been on the EU to do this to level up the growing uncertainty from business within Europe whom would have actively lobbied their MEP's thus putting pressure on the rest of the EU 27 and thus the hierarchy within the EU

 

Instead we have had a tunnel visioned focus on what we stand to 'lose' in trade...thus ignoring the methods we could adopt in negotiating for a free trade deal.

 

We need to remember what we voted leave for in the first place and what the question was. Big Business should have been consulted from the very start to plan and come to a consensus how WTO can work for them. We are talking about increases in tariffs and is purely a mathematical issue what Business could simply have worked around themselves.

 

What we now know is the EU is a true dictatorship and the only way it will implode is if countries start to walk away

 

What was wrong with the trade deal we already had? How is the EU a true dictatorship? Their Council of elected Ministers set the policy and have spokesmen and civil servants to negotiate the details? No country is going to walk away now they understand the complexities of 40 odd years of trading treaties. 8 years is the usual negotiating period.

[Heatwave]

Agreed. In any negotiation you have to have a walk away moment if the deal does not work for both parties.

 

One of the early strap lines was ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’. Whatever happened to that common sense viewpoint?

 

Depends on what your definition of a bad deal is. I still think the best deal is the one we've got as EU members.