Brexit again...

[For Us All]

I understand what you're saying and I have considered what motivation Brexiteers have for wanting out. Trouble is apart from nationalism, blind patriotism, a wish to forge a society at a political extreme which won't happen as EU members, a dislike of immigration or just plain 'don't like Johnny Foreigner' I can't see any other motivation to leave.

People are perfectly entitled to hold those views but I don't agree with them and consider them positions of either little or no credibility or to be dangerous such as the wish to lurch to a political extreme.

As I've said many times if someone could offer me a convincing argument to leave I'd change my mind but in over two years I've heard little or nothing to make me think it'll be anything other than detrimental to our nation. If I thought for one minute any of the Leave campaign promises or predictions were either true or likely to happen I'd consider them as decent arguments but the whole thing is constructed around lies, inaccuracies and pie in the sky promises like we'll control immigration or instantly forge wonderful trade deals with non-EU countries that will be better than the deals the EU has with them.

I can't see much consideration of the thinking of remain supporters by the leave brigade, or if they have they're doing a very good job of hiding it.

If any Brexiteer could give one - just one - factual and realistic worthwhile reason to sacrifice all the benefits of EU membership and leave I'd be all ears and also surprised because I haven't heard one yet. In this entire thread every single point made by a Brexit supporter has been logically deconstructed by a remain supporter which has often resulted in some jingoistic or grossly silly comment as there is no logical or credible counter argument, unless, of course, you share the views of Rees Mogg and co. who wish to bin all legislation and return to a Victorian economy. Not credible for me but if you're either a member of the ruling establishment or a boot licking lackey Alf Garnett it might be.

 

So basically you are a guardian of the status quo and is scared of change?

[For Us All]

Correct Fosse

 

We do trade with the EU, but for the most part we trade extensively within the Australasian region.

 

Just been listening to the BBC and once again there's mutterings in the HP for another Referendum.

 

Fair point Barry and I suppose all the Remainers have nothing to lose in promoting another referundum,after all they might as well go for the best of three?

[SourceOfTheTrent]

So basically you are a guardian of the status quo and is scared of change?

me the one who's scared of change? That's a laugh, I'm not a Little Englander dreaming of a return to a world of the past that was, in reality, far different than the fantasy.

I embrace the modern world and the advances available to us. Lots of things need to change and we should always seek to progress both technically and socially.

Throughout history smaller areas and principalities have merged into larger areas of sovereignty forming countries and state federations, the USA being the most well known federation. The EU is a federation for mutual benefit and for all its flaws offers a platform for economic and social strength. Small individual nations will not compete with the huge economic trading blocs that have emerged in the last 70 years, how on earth could we hope to have much influence over China or India? We've never managed it with the USA. As part of the EU we can compete, especially as we are now a post-industrial society.

It's certainly not me who's a luddite!

[For Us All]

From a personal perspective......

I don't think there should be any court higher than the highest court of the individual country.... there should be no appeal to another court anywhere.... there should be no collective court to redirect or dominate national courts or to make rules for any of the countries involved.... or to pose restrictions upon that individual country.

That could make the people of that country feel subservient to a conglomerate of faceless bureaucrats

 

In other words the EU is responsible for the rise of nationalism?

[SourceOfTheTrent]

In other words the EU is responsible for the rise of nationalism?

I think the rise of nationalism is the result of poor individual national government over time, the biggest culprits being the former colonial powers such as Britain, France, Holland and Belgium with the cherry being placed on the cake by Frau Merkel allowing droves of non Europeans entry to Germany in a single year. I can assure you all the Germans I know are livid about it and they're all usually pretty liberal minded.

It's not the EU who have perused a policy of dragging in people from anywhere and everywhere virtually uncontrolled for the last 70 years.

Europe needs a clear agreed policy on non-European immigration which is driving nationalism and we have much more chance of sorting that collectively as the EU rather than each nation doing their own thing. This issue is currently the biggest threat to the traditional European way of life and European unity.

[Fosse69]

I think the rise of nationalism is the result of poor individual national government over time, the biggest culprits being the former colonial powers such as Britain, France, Holland and Belgium with the cherry being placed on the cake by Frau Merkel allowing droves of non Europeans entry to Germany in a single year. I can assure you all the Germans I know are livid about it and they're all usually pretty liberal minded.

It's not the EU who have perused a policy of dragging in people from anywhere and everywhere virtually uncontrolled for the last 70 years.

Europe needs a clear agreed policy on non-European immigration which is driving nationalism and we have much more chance of sorting that collectively as the EU rather than each nation doing their own thing. This issue is currently the biggest threat to the traditional European way of life and European unity.

There is also the demographic aspect, European countries mainly have a birth rate of 1.8, which means a declining population without immigration, thus who looks after the elderly(post war bulge) and maintains the growth of the economy. Japan is the classic example with little immigration, and China is also allowing more than one child per couple. It wasn't only for humanitarian reasons that Merkel made that decision.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

There is also the demographic aspect, European countries mainly have a birth rate of 1.8, which means a declining population without immigration, thus who looks after the elderly(post war bulge) and maintains the growth of the economy. Japan is the classic example with little immigration, and China is also allowing more than one child per couple. It wasn't only for humanitarian reasons that Merkel made that decision.

You're spot on there and it largely explains our immigration policy of the past 50 years or so.

My old man made a thought provoking point a while ago, people complain about immigration but at the same time have allowed the birth rate to fall, how many babies have been aborted in the past 50 years?

[Fosse69]

You're spot on there and it largely explains our immigration policy of the past 50 years or so.

My old man made a thought provoking point a while ago, people complain about immigration but at the same time have allowed the birth rate to fall, how many babies have been aborted in the past 50 years?

Due to living wage? 50 years ago a man could raise a family on his wage, now it takes 2 people and even wage supplements.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

Due to living wage? 50 years ago a man could raise a family on his wage, now it takes 2 people and even wage supplements.

I also think people expect higher material standard of living than 50 years ago.

Interestingly, my wife used to work for a building society and in the 1980's she predicted that as more women went to work the effect would be increased house prices as she was seeing the way mortgages were awarded changing to take in greater wage multiples and including the second wage. Given the falling supply against increasing demand it was inevitable, another driver for a lower indigenous birth rate. These issues have been common across the developed world.

[Aussie Rules]

Given the expanse of Auss I would imagine transport costs are quite high

 

They are Geo, but the truckers keep us moving

[Paul6754]

There is also the demographic aspect, European countries mainly have a birth rate of 1.8, which means a declining population without immigration, thus who looks after the elderly(post war bulge) and maintains the growth of the economy. Japan is the classic example with little immigration, and China is also allowing more than one child per couple. It wasn't only for humanitarian reasons that Merkel made that decision.

 

These are reasons often given to justify large scale immigration into Western Countries but immigrants themselves eventually get old and need looking after which leads to more immigration etc. People from the 3rd world may not drive the economy as well as the endogenous people, the 3rd world is the 3rd world for a reason.

 

Another school of thought suggests a falling birth rate does lead to a reduction in the population and a reduction in national GDP but due to a lower population a country then doesn't need to spend as much money on education, housing, infrastructure, welfare etc which results in increased disposable income and an increase in GDP/capita and a higher standard of living. Evatually an "equilibrium" between birth rate and population occurs.

 

I guess we'll see who has got it right over the next 50-100 years, Europe/USA or Japan/South Korea.

[geosname]

That's the most sensible argument that could be used to promote Brexit I've seen yet. However, it's just as valid an argument for reform of the structure of the EU.

Personally I think there has to be pan-EU courts that hold supremacy but only in certain areas, specifically regarding EU treaty laws as agreed by the member states and commercial courts to uphold trade laws and agreements. Criminal justice, domestic law and the like, ie, sovereign law should be the sole preserve of the sovereign state. There will always be, however, instances where international courts are convened as supreme law administrators, such as those held in the Hague.

For me the court supremacy issue is not an impasse and certainly not worth leaving the union for, I can't think of any rulings that are totally unacceptable to me or that have been significantly damaging to the prosperity or stability of the UK.

 

I'm not promoting brexit, just highlighting one of the problems I see with the EU. There are others.

[geosname]

Well said that man.

 

The thing is we do need common laws and regulation (and maybe some very exceptional circumstances) if we agree to work together. The EU is becoming a political union as opposed to what it's original intentions were is part of the reason it's far from perfect. I'd of at least liked to of seen us rock the boat and push for some reform as members with the likes of countries I've mentioned before - before just deciding to leave with no proper plan in place! It's the logic of that kid who runs off with the football so no one else can play when he's losing. It's a brilliant concept the EU, it's just being made a pigs ear of in recent years by the likes of Merkel letting 1,000,000 refugees into Germany knowing they can then claim citizenship invite their families and move across Europe how they want, Calais situation happened how long after she did that.. It all happened within a year I think? I still to this day believe the biggest consequence of that decision by Merkel is Brexit.

 

I don't think we need common laws, perhaps a body that decides if we have infringed our agreement but common law is defined be each countries own history and development.

[geosname]

In other words the EU is responsible for the rise of nationalism?

 

I don't think nationalism is a problem until it's challenged.

Each country should have and maintain it's own identity.

The concept of different countries working together, as in the common market, is excellent... but so is the concept of communism, it's the reality that gets messed up... and the EU is messing it up.

[geosname]

I don't promote that as a reason to leave it