Brexit again...

[SourceOfTheTrent]

You seem to be managing down under Barry despite not being in the EU.

How on earth do you survive?

Massive primary industry earning big export dollars.

Plus, as Fosse says, trading with neighbours.

[geosname]

If you are not a hard right Brexidiot the question was not aimed at you.

I use the term Brexidiot in retort at being called the oh-so-witty name of Remoaner by those whose arguments are of no substance and hold no water, you know, the leave means leave and Rule Britannia brigade (ie, we have no plan but we do have a superiority complex).

You are correct regarding the level of European integration that is or may be agreed and that is an issue for serious consideration and debate. Trouble is we've never had such a debate and the Brexit referendum certainly wasn't that, it was far too simplistic yet had monumental consequences attached. In or out, absolutely nothing about how integrated we wished to be as remainers and absolutely nothing about what relationship we'd wish for as leavers.

Total idiocy on the part of Cameron and the Tories in anybody's book, unless, of course, you're devoid of balanced thinking.

 

I don't disagree, I was merely pointing out the difference between cooperation and subservience

[SourceOfTheTrent]

I don't disagree, I was merely pointing out the difference between cooperation and subservience

There is a difference between those two positions.

The UK has never been subservient and has enjoyed a strong partner position in the EU since we joined, we must have had more concessions and opt outs from directives than any other member states which also demonstrates we have never conceded any sovereignty.

We're hamstringing ourselves for an intangible pipe dream.

[geosname]

Howjy you worked in a profession that ruins people's lives. Your working careers was literally to take all the money possible from fellow countrymen and leave them in the gutter without a pot to **** in. You seem obsessed with qualifications, go the open university and get one.. Its not hard! I suggest you get yourself into politics!! 😂

 

People tend to work primarily to pay their way, bills, mortgage, food etc.... he's paid his dues what more would you expect?

Politicians take as much as they can from the workers to implement their own vision of how people should live... they leave very little choice and fewer options.

If you are not prepared to lose the bet you shouldn't make it... try telling that to the vat man, the tax man, your local council or customs and excise after yu have gambled on a new business venture

[geosname]

There is a difference between those two positions.

The UK has never been subservient and has enjoyed a strong partner position in the EU since we joined, we must have had more concessions and opt outs from directives than any other member states which also demonstrates we have never conceded any sovereignty.

We're hamstringing ourselves for an intangible pipe dream.

 

Look at it from a brexiteers perspective

[geosname]

Trading with neighbours, saves transport costs.

 

Given the expanse of Auss I would imagine transport costs are quite high

[geosname]

Why do the Leaver's all struggle to string a coherent logical reply that exceeds one or two sentences, ignore any challenging or difficult questions presented by the other side and always just spout out the same rhetoric over and over again like someone with mental issues? Do you not know how to have a debate on such a platform as this? It's not hard.

 

At least Regal Begal, a self proclaimed Brexiteer, was big enough and not blind to see that there are more idiots on the Brexit side.

 

In fact for most neutrals reading this whole thing it's pretty obvious to see.

 

It's simple... if you keep asking the same questions you get the same answers..... unless you have mental issues and expect a different one

[Howjy04]

Aaron Banks and all who support or agree with him are ignoramuses who revel in their ignorance whilst seeing their views as more valid than those held by people who debate using accurate information, analysis and facts.

I was earlier accused of being Mr. Google Copy & Paste by Howjy04 who in the same post professed to not read newspapers as he claims to think for himself. This illustrates Brexidiot thinking, the facts and likely outcome of Brexit don't suit their small minded Little Englander attitudes so therefore they'll be ignored in favour of some cloud cuckoo land idea of patriotism that involves believing Britain will triumph in any situation because of our innate superiority. Utter pie in the sky and the sort of blind stupidity that was seen in 1914 across Europe in the belligerent nations as they charged machine guns giving their lives for king, kaiser, czar and country believing they were superior by birth and that superiority would win the day. How very sad, hollow and very wrong all that jingoistic, imperialistic thinking turned out to be.

Brexit will turn out to be just as hollow.

 

I stopped taking your comments seriously when you compared Gaza with the Warsaw Ghetto.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

Look at it from a brexiteers perspective

I understand what you're saying and I have considered what motivation Brexiteers have for wanting out. Trouble is apart from nationalism, blind patriotism, a wish to forge a society at a political extreme which won't happen as EU members, a dislike of immigration or just plain 'don't like Johnny Foreigner' I can't see any other motivation to leave.

People are perfectly entitled to hold those views but I don't agree with them and consider them positions of either little or no credibility or to be dangerous such as the wish to lurch to a political extreme.

As I've said many times if someone could offer me a convincing argument to leave I'd change my mind but in over two years I've heard little or nothing to make me think it'll be anything other than detrimental to our nation. If I thought for one minute any of the Leave campaign promises or predictions were either true or likely to happen I'd consider them as decent arguments but the whole thing is constructed around lies, inaccuracies and pie in the sky promises like we'll control immigration or instantly forge wonderful trade deals with non-EU countries that will be better than the deals the EU has with them.

I can't see much consideration of the thinking of remain supporters by the leave brigade, or if they have they're doing a very good job of hiding it.

If any Brexiteer could give one - just one - factual and realistic worthwhile reason to sacrifice all the benefits of EU membership and leave I'd be all ears and also surprised because I haven't heard one yet. In this entire thread every single point made by a Brexit supporter has been logically deconstructed by a remain supporter which has often resulted in some jingoistic or grossly silly comment as there is no logical or credible counter argument, unless, of course, you share the views of Rees Mogg and co. who wish to bin all legislation and return to a Victorian economy. Not credible for me but if you're either a member of the ruling establishment or a boot licking lackey Alf Garnett it might be.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

I stopped taking your comments seriously when you compared Gaza with the Warsaw Ghetto.

So Israel imprisoning people in the Gaza strip and controlling the flow of food, water, energy, medical supplies to that area is not comparable to what happened in Warsaw? What about the 300+ dead and 15,000+ casualties caused there by Israeli military action this year in "response" to ineffective home made firework rockets and some stone throwing? How many Israeli casualties have there been? You'd struggle to fill a car with them.

I don't dislike the Jewish people but I detest the behaviour of the Israeli government and its supporters.

[Fosse69]

Given the expanse of Auss I would imagine transport costs are quite high

True, but Aus trading with say Japan or the UK would incur different transport costs dependent upon the method. As with the UK and China choice of rail, boat or air, with road at the ends, to suit cost, volume and delivery times.

[geosname]

I understand what you're saying and I have considered what motivation Brexiteers have for wanting out. Trouble is apart from nationalism, blind patriotism, a wish to forge a society at a political extreme which won't happen as EU members, a dislike of immigration or just plain 'don't like Johnny Foreigner' I can't see any other motivation to leave.

People are perfectly entitled to hold those views but I don't agree with them and consider them positions of either little or no credibility or to be dangerous such as the wish to lurch to a political extreme.

As I've said many times if someone could offer me a convincing argument to leave I'd change my mind but in over two years I've heard little or nothing to make me think it'll be anything other than detrimental to our nation. If I thought for one minute any of the Leave campaign promises or predictions were either true or likely to happen I'd consider them as decent arguments but the whole thing is constructed around lies, inaccuracies and pie in the sky promises like we'll control immigration or instantly forge wonderful trade deals with non-EU countries that will be better than the deals the EU has with them.

I can't see much consideration of the thinking of remain supporters by the leave brigade, or if they have they're doing a very good job of hiding it.

If any Brexiteer could give one - just one - factual and realistic worthwhile reason to sacrifice all the benefits of EU membership and leave I'd be all ears and also surprised because I haven't heard one yet. In this entire thread every single point made by a Brexit supporter has been logically deconstructed by a remain supporter which has often resulted in some jingoistic or grossly silly comment as there is no logical or credible counter argument, unless, of course, you share the views of Rees Mogg and co. who wish to bin all legislation and return to a Victorian economy. Not credible for me but if you're either a member of the ruling establishment or a boot licking lackey Alf Garnett it might be.

 

From a personal perspective......

I don't think there should be any court higher than the highest court of the individual country.... there should be no appeal to another court anywhere.... there should be no collective court to redirect or dominate national courts or to make rules for any of the countries involved.... or to pose restrictions upon that individual country.

That could make the people of that country feel subservient to a conglomerate of faceless bureaucrats

[Fosse69]

From a personal perspective......

I don't think there should be any court higher than the highest court of the individual country.... there should be no appeal to another court anywhere.... there should be no collective court to redirect or dominate national courts or to make rules for any of the countries involved.... or to pose restrictions upon that individual country.

That could make the people of that country feel subservient to a conglomerate of faceless bureaucrats

Nuremberg Trial?

[Thevalefan]

From a personal perspective......

I don't think there should be any court higher than the highest court of the individual country.... there should be no appeal to another court anywhere.... there should be no collective court to redirect or dominate national courts or to make rules for any of the countries involved.... or to pose restrictions upon that individual country.

That could make the people of that country feel subservient to a conglomerate of faceless bureaucrats

 

Well said that man.

 

The thing is we do need common laws and regulation (and maybe some very exceptional circumstances) if we agree to work together. The EU is becoming a political union as opposed to what it's original intentions were is part of the reason it's far from perfect. I'd of at least liked to of seen us rock the boat and push for some reform as members with the likes of countries I've mentioned before - before just deciding to leave with no proper plan in place! It's the logic of that kid who runs off with the football so no one else can play when he's losing. It's a brilliant concept the EU, it's just being made a pigs ear of in recent years by the likes of Merkel letting 1,000,000 refugees into Germany knowing they can then claim citizenship invite their families and move across Europe how they want, Calais situation happened how long after she did that.. It all happened within a year I think? I still to this day believe the biggest consequence of that decision by Merkel is Brexit.

[SourceOfTheTrent]

From a personal perspective......

I don't think there should be any court higher than the highest court of the individual country.... there should be no appeal to another court anywhere.... there should be no collective court to redirect or dominate national courts or to make rules for any of the countries involved.... or to pose restrictions upon that individual country.

That could make the people of that country feel subservient to a conglomerate of faceless bureaucrats

That's the most sensible argument that could be used to promote Brexit I've seen yet. However, it's just as valid an argument for reform of the structure of the EU.

Personally I think there has to be pan-EU courts that hold supremacy but only in certain areas, specifically regarding EU treaty laws as agreed by the member states and commercial courts to uphold trade laws and agreements. Criminal justice, domestic law and the like, ie, sovereign law should be the sole preserve of the sovereign state. There will always be, however, instances where international courts are convened as supreme law administrators, such as those held in the Hague.

For me the court supremacy issue is not an impasse and certainly not worth leaving the union for, I can't think of any rulings that are totally unacceptable to me or that have been significantly damaging to the prosperity or stability of the UK.