League 2 Refereeing standard

[MBE]

Well done Richie Wellens for coming out and saying how it is about the quality of referees in League 2 ,without sugar coating it to avoid what I'm sure will be a fine from the FA. Its about time a manager stood up and strongly said in public its not right. 

I don't know if the lack of crowds or the fact that I have a better view of the action home and away, rather than sat in the stand, but this season the standard appears to be even worse than last year.. I think there have been some shocking decisions against us this season and clearly we are not the only club feeling hard done to. Its long overdue for the FA and the referees association to acknowledge it, put an action plan in place rather than sending clubs an apology days and weeks later.

It's about time we had professional referees thoughout the EFL rather than just in the PL with a clear career pathway for young aspiring referees.

Link

[Mellor!]

Ironically, I thought the ref on Tuesday was excellent. 

[Coyney Valiant]

1 hour ago, MBE said:

Well done Richie Wellens for coming out and saying how it is about the quality of referees in League 2 ,without sugar coating it to avoid what I'm sure will be a fine from the FA. Its about time a manager stood up and strongly said in public its not right. 

I don't know if the lack of crowds or the fact that I have a better view of the action home and away, rather than sat in the stand, but this season the standard appears to be even worse than last year.. I think there have been some shocking decisions against us this season and clearly we are not the only club feeling hard done to. Its long overdue for the FA and the referees association to acknowledge it, put an action plan in place rather than sending clubs an apology days and weeks later.

It's about time we had professional referees thoughout the EFL rather than just in the PL with a clear career pathway for young aspiring referees.

Link

I don’t think even if there was professional refs they would be any better , they just have no understanding of the game . When players are falling over or feigning injury most of the supporters can see this , but the referee usually can’t and falls for the players antics , the standard won’t improve until they fast track ex pros or semi pros into reffing , 

[Fosse69]

6 minutes ago, Coyney Valiant said:

I don’t think even if there was professional refs they would be any better , they just have no understanding of the game . When players are falling over or feigning injury most of the supporters can see this , but the referee usually can’t and falls for the players antics , the standard won’t improve until they fast track ex pros or semi pros into reffing , 

I have often wondered why players don`t try reffing when they retire if their legs are up to it.  Starting in the National League should not be beneath them, surely their experience would be a great help. 

But with the present system the mentoring of new refs could surely be improved by pro-players/managers explaining situations in previous games they have reffed.

[TheSage]

I guess ex-players don't do it because they can see the hassle and the flak they get.

I used to get as frustrated and as annoyed as the next person but nowadays tend to accept that the officials do their best and don't intentionally set out to make incorrect decisions.

Sometimes they make errors. But probably nowhere near as many as the players do in 90 minutes.

It's also important to remember that the game these days is very fast and some players will try and con officials to get fouls. It's way faster than it was fifty years ago and much harder to officiate.

I've refereed at schoolboy level and that's hard enough. You only get one split second view (sometimes unclear) of what has occurred and you don't have the benefit of slow motion replays from several angles. Nor still photographs indicating that you got it wrong.

We have to learn to go with the flow. Respect the officials for what they are trying to do and don't get uptight if you lose out on some decisions. It happens to all teams. Referees don't kick or head the ball or shoot or tackle or not mark opponents. It's easy to blame them but it really is a very very difficult job.

Wellens, of course, has never made a mistake in his life!

I'll get my coat.

[Joe B]

I'll be honest; I've never got/been bothered this debate. I think most refs largely do a decent job.

I enjoy giving a ref stick when at the ground as it's part of the pantomime. I'll boo any decision, even though 90% of the time I agree. Good fun, innit. Gets you through the slog of some League 2 games. I remember giving the liner dogs abuse for reversing the penalty away at Cheltenham, despite it clearly being the correct decision.

I don't think the standard is getting worse, or is even that particularly atrocious; I don't know what standard we're supposed to be comparing it to. 10 years ago? 50? Premier League? Are they being compared to the concept of 100% success rate on every decision? What exactly is Wellens imagining they should be doing, and where are they falling short?

Lower-league officiating has largely been the same for years, in my view, with a few card-happy/attention seekers but most doing a steady enough job under difficult circumstances, with two sets of fans/players CONVINCED you've got something against them, when in reality they don't care who wins and just want to pick up their pay and get on the motorway without incident.

The refs largely perform fine in my view, and fans from every team get caught up in the minutiae of decision-making (a shirt pull here, a push there, which are difficult to judge) as evidence the refs are useless and have it in for their side. It's usually the ref being bad 'for Vale', which to me indicates that we're viewing it through, understandably, black and white coloured spectacles. 

I'm genuinely not fussed by the refs. Trevor Kettle is still lambasted from the Forest Green game last season, but as far as I can remember he sent off Clark for a horrendous two footer (justified), sent off Pope for a second yellow for getting in a players face when he was on the ground (justified), and gave a 50/50 penalty to them. The way fans go on about him you'd think he'd taken a machine gun to our away fans. 

[Jacko51]

9 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I'll be honest; I've never got/been bothered this debate. I think most refs largely do a decent job.

I enjoy giving a ref stick when at the ground as it's part of the pantomime. I'll boo any decision, even though 90% of the time I agree. Good fun, innit. Gets you through the slog of some League 2 games. I remember giving the liner dogs abuse for reversing the penalty away at Cheltenham, despite it clearly being the correct decision.

I don't think the standard is getting worse, or is even that particularly atrocious; I don't know what standard we're supposed to be comparing it to. 10 years ago? 50? Premier League? Are they being compared to the concept of 100% success rate on every decision? What exactly is Wellens imagining they should be doing, and where are they falling short?

Lower-league officiating has largely been the same for years, in my view, with a few card-happy/attention seekers but most doing a steady enough job under difficult circumstances, with two sets of fans/players CONVINCED you've got something against them, when in reality they don't care who wins and just want to pick up their pay and get on the motorway without incident.

The refs largely perform fine in my view, and fans from every team get caught up in the minutiae of decision-making (a shirt pull here, a push there, which are difficult to judge) as evidence the refs are useless and have it in for their side. It's usually the ref being bad 'for Vale', which to me indicates that we're viewing it through, understandably, black and white coloured spectacles. 

I'm genuinely not fussed by the refs. Trevor Kettle is still lambasted from the Forest Green game last season, but as far as I can remember he sent off Clark for a horrendous two footer (justified), sent off Pope for a second yellow for getting in a players face when he was on the ground (justified), and gave a 50/50 penalty to them. The way fans go on about him you'd think he'd taken a machine gun to our away fans. 

Joe, you weren't there were you??  He was horrendous throughout the game.  He gave 28 free kicks against Vale about half of which were fouls.  Pope's second booking was for taking umbrage at a blatant dive by their player which the ref bought.  Kettle was absolutely dreadful.

I agree with Mellor that Breakspear was very good on Tuesday - he is an experienced referee.  Sadly, a lot of the refs are our level are new ones learning the game.  Some of them aren't learning very quickly!

[Coyney Valiant]

16 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I'll be honest; I've never got/been bothered this debate. I think most refs largely do a decent job.

I enjoy giving a ref stick when at the ground as it's part of the pantomime. I'll boo any decision, even though 90% of the time I agree. Good fun, innit. Gets you through the slog of some League 2 games. I remember giving the liner dogs abuse for reversing the penalty away at Cheltenham, despite it clearly being the correct decision.

I don't think the standard is getting worse, or is even that particularly atrocious; I don't know what standard we're supposed to be comparing it to. 10 years ago? 50? Premier League? Are they being compared to the concept of 100% success rate on every decision? What exactly is Wellens imagining they should be doing, and where are they falling short?

Lower-league officiating has largely been the same for years, in my view, with a few card-happy/attention seekers but most doing a steady enough job under difficult circumstances, with two sets of fans/players CONVINCED you've got something against them, when in reality they don't care who wins and just want to pick up their pay and get on the motorway without incident.

The refs largely perform fine in my view, and fans from every team get caught up in the minutiae of decision-making (a shirt pull here, a push there, which are difficult to judge) as evidence the refs are useless and have it in for their side. It's usually the ref being bad 'for Vale', which to me indicates that we're viewing it through, understandably, black and white coloured spectacles. 

I'm genuinely not fussed by the refs. Trevor Kettle is still lambasted from the Forest Green game last season, but as far as I can remember he sent off Clark for a horrendous two footer (justified), sent off Pope for a second yellow for getting in a players face when he was on the ground (justified), and gave a 50/50 penalty to them. The way fans go on about him you'd think he'd taken a machine gun to our away fans. 

He got in the players face because he collapsed in a heap though there was no or very little contact and and then screamed as if he’d been shot but he got the free kick 

[Joe B]

19 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Joe, you weren't there were you??  He was horrendous throughout the game.  He gave 28 free kicks against Vale about half of which were fouls.  Pope's second booking was for taking umbrage at a blatant dive by their player which the ref bought.  Kettle was absolutely dreadful.

I agree with Mellor that Breakspear was very good on Tuesday - he is an experienced referee.  Sadly, a lot of the refs are our level are new ones learning the game.  Some of them aren't learning very quickly!

I wasn't but watched it on iFollow completely legitimately as a resident of the Canary Islands. It all got a bit messy at the end but the main sticks to beat him with were the double sending off, which to me seemed perfectly explainable.

Whether Pope was justified in his outrage or not, you can't do what he did and not leave a chance of getting booked. He was already on a yellow.

I'm not saying Kettle was good that night, just that I don't think he was *that* poor that he still needs to be referenced to this day (well aware I brought him up but some accounts on Twitter bring him up every week). The sendings off were, whether morally right or wrong, probably correct, or at least not objective howlers. At worst, he booked Pope harshly for some silly behaviour and gave a load of soft free-kicks.

[Joe B]

9 minutes ago, Coyney Valiant said:

He got in the players face because he collapsed in a heap though there was no or very little contact and and then screamed as if he’d been shot but he got the free kick 

Whilst Pope may have been morally correct to do this, it wasn't a very bright thing to do when on a booking. To stoop down as the player was on the ground and scream in his face was just lacking a cool head.

I'm not saying Pope was wrong, or the player didn't dive, just that the yellow card wasn't an outrageously poor decision, and neither was the Clark red.

[Jacko51]

30 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I wasn't but watched it on iFollow completely legitimately as a resident of the Canary Islands. It all got a bit messy at the end but the main sticks to beat him with were the double sending off, which to me seemed perfectly explainable.

Whether Pope was justified in his outrage or not, you can't do what he did and not leave a chance of getting booked. He was already on a yellow.

I'm not saying Kettle was good that night, just that I don't think he was *that* poor that he still needs to be referenced to this day (well aware I brought him up but some accounts on Twitter bring him up every week). The sendings off were, whether morally right or wrong, probably correct, or at least not objective howlers. At worst, he booked Pope harshly for some silly behaviour and gave a load of soft free-kicks.

I never mentioned the sendings off. 

[valefan16]

Issue is VAR... it took away more experienced referees in the EFL into the Premiership thus loads got promoted from non league to cover the EFL hence the quality has dropped.

Kettle is generally crap, loves being centre of attention but against FGR only really giving them a soft penalty was probably wrong. Him blowing for half time at Accrington as they fired in a shot that went in was pure Kettle though.

The last two or three referees have been decent though, Tuesdays did well, can’t recall anything in the Colchester game to moan about nor the Bolton one.

Didn’t think the Orient one was too bad bar the potential penalty second half.

We just don’t seem to get many rubs of the green with officials though when they do bugger up.

Incidentally I can’t seem to recall the last time we faced 10 men, must be a while since we had someone sent off against us? Especially for a long enough period of time to be something we could take advantage off (so the Scunny one after full time doesn’t count!)

[Jacko51]

10 minutes ago, valefan16 said:

Issue is VAR... it took away more experienced referees in the EFL into the Premiership thus loads got promoted from non league to cover the EFL hence the quality has dropped.

Kettle is generally crap, loves being centre of attention but against FGR only really giving them a soft penalty was probably wrong. 

Kettle was hopeless throughout the game. At FGR the away fans now sit in the corner next to the tunnel. At half time in that game the Vale fans were incensed at how Kettle was reffing the game and one of them encouraged the nearside liner to grab the whistle before Kettle could do any more damage. That was before either sending off or the FGR penalty. It was one of the worst reffing performances I’ve seen, on a par with Keith Styles against Bolton. 

[valiant_593]

15 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Joe, you weren't there were you??  He was horrendous throughout the game.  He gave 28 free kicks against Vale about half of which were fouls.  Pope's second booking was for taking umbrage at a blatant dive by their player which the ref bought.  Kettle was absolutely dreadful.

I agree with Mellor that Breakspear was very good on Tuesday - he is an experienced referee.  Sadly, a lot of the refs are our level are new ones learning the game.  Some of them aren't learning very quickly!

They have to start somewhere. 
just because they aren’t experienced refs Dosent mean there bad. Infact the majority of experienced refs I’ve seen down vale have been horrendous one Trevor kettle especially.

I don’t think there as bad overall as some make out. We only seem to see real complaints when we’re losing and then it’s the refs fault. It’s the same for both sides and at the end of the day, they’re pretty poor in the premiership so no it’s a surprise how poor the standard is in this division