General Erection - 12th December 2019

[Fosse69]

28 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Just imagine neutral Jezza,the prime ditherer leading the country?

We'd never get anything done.

You call austerity getting things done, and want some more with a smaller economy after Brexit? 

[Fosse69]

29 minutes ago, geosname said:

I wonder how the tax regime will affect the owners of port vale?

I doubt if they are billionaires, some football club owners are based in Gib for tax purposes.

[philpvfc]

18 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Not true. All costed and completely in line with what other European countries spend. Praised by many economists and will ensure that many of the shameful things going on in this country (and that led to a damning United Nations report) should come to an end.

 

How can they be going against the will of the people when they'll be putting their deal to those people? More people are opposed to Boris Johnson's deal than are for it but you don't go on about how he's going against the will of the people.

No he’s not. He’s putting a deal together which is nothing like people voted for when they voted for Brexit. At least the Boris deal includes the main points for what people voted for when they voted to leave.

[Bycarsbill]

3 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Again, not true. Many in the conservative party were working to "thwart the will of the people" and the legislation that prevented Brexit was brought on several occasions by Conservatives. You can't change facts to suit your narrative. The country, towns, cities, and our political parties are all split over Brexit and both the tories' 'let's get it done (whatever 'it' is) and the Libdems' 'let's ignore half the electorate' approach will do nothing to bring people back together. In fact, very much the opposite. It's only Labour with a nuanced, conciliatory approach with a neutral leader that isn't risking more severe divides.

Unfortunately however you to try and paint it as "not true" it is overwhelmingly accurate. I have conceded that there were dissenting voices with the Tory ranks, not least Dominic Grieve (who is incidentally is now without the Tory whip) but the vast majority of Tory MPs (check all the voting records on the parliamentary votes if you don't believe me) voted for both Theresa May's and Boris Johnson's Brexit deals.  Unlike the vast majority of Labour MPs (including all of the shadow cabinet) who voted consistently to "thwart the will of the people" by rejecting both deals that were on the table.

You're still trying to dodge the 'truth bullet' that the fantasy being peddled by Corbyn & Co that they will negotiate a great deal with the EU, put this to the people and then campaign against it at worst or stay "neutral" is a most illogical, ill-conceived idea even by Labour's standards!

[Fosse69]

1 hour ago, geosname said:

You lost me at Who benefits most from Brexit..... no body initially.... long term is anyone's guess..... UK if it can do the deals.... EU if it wants to diverge and doesn't have to drag the UK with it.

Initially businesses located in tax havens who will not have to open their files due to the new EU tax evasion laws at the end of Jan 2020. 

[mr.hobblesworth]

2 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Unfortunately however you to try and paint it as "not true" it is overwhelmingly accurate. I have conceded that there were dissenting voices with the Tory ranks, not least Dominic Grieve (who is incidentally is now without the Tory whip) but the vast majority of Tory MPs (check all the voting records on the parliamentary votes if you don't believe me) voted for both Theresa May's and Boris Johnson's Brexit deals. 

Wrong again. Doesn't look like a vast majority to me at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/jan/15/how-did-your-mp-vote-on-mays-brexit-deal-meaningful-vote

[mr.hobblesworth]

43 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Just imagine neutral Jezza,the prime ditherer leading the country?

We'd never get anything done.

Well, we wouldn't get disabled people killing themselves due to cuts to their benefits, or people getting deported to countries they'd never visited, or astronomical rises in homelessness, or teachers having to make appeals for glue sticks and pencils, or foodbanks becoming a statutory service, or savage cuts to mental health services or the <ovf censored> United Nations expressing alarm at the poverty in our country but, yeah, a leader who remains neutral in an attempt to heal a divide must be resisted at all costs.

[philpvfc]

10 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Wrong again. Doesn't look like a vast majority to me at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/jan/15/how-did-your-mp-vote-on-mays-brexit-deal-meaningful-vote

The majority of Conservative voters voted for the deal. You don’t seem to grasp what a majority is.

[geosname]

33 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Well, we wouldn't get disabled people killing themselves due to cuts to their benefits, or people getting deported to countries they'd never visited, or astronomical rises in homelessness, or teachers having to make appeals for glue sticks and pencils, or foodbanks becoming a statutory service, or savage cuts to mental health services or the <ovf censored> United Nations expressing alarm at the poverty in our country but, yeah, a leader who remains neutral in an attempt to heal a divide must be resisted at all costs.

Define poverty.

[mr.hobblesworth]

50 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

The majority of Conservative voters voted for the deal. You don’t seem to grasp what a majority is.

? 

I'm guessing that's a typo and you mean MPs. I was pointing out that it wasn't a "vast majority" and that Bill's assertion that "the Conservative line on Brexit is totally transparent, straightforward and consistent" is utter codswallop. Every single word of it.

[mr.hobblesworth]

1 hour ago, philpvfc said:

No he’s not. He’s putting a deal together which is nothing like people voted for when they voted for Brexit. At least the Boris deal includes the main points for what people voted for when they voted to leave.

Not this again. Due to the half-assed nature of the referendum, no-one knows what peple were voting for. Some may have wanted a no-deal exit, some may have wanted a customs union, some may have wanted australian points based immigration, there are a 1001 different ways and reasons that people voted and what they wanted and the only thing certain is that no-one can know what they were. At least we're pledging to get something concrete and asking if people want it or not.

[Bycarsbill]

4 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Again, not true. Many in the conservative party were working to "thwart the will of the people" and the legislation that prevented Brexit was brought on several occasions by Conservatives. You can't change facts to suit your narrative. The country, towns, cities, and our political parties are all split over Brexit and both the tories' 'let's get it done (whatever 'it' is) and the Libdems' 'let's ignore half the electorate' approach will do nothing to bring people back together. In fact, very much the opposite. It's only Labour with a nuanced, conciliatory approach with a neutral leader that isn't risking more severe divides.

We're again going to have to agree to disagree Mr. H. However, I'm afraid it's you running away from the truth not me.  Here's your challenge: check the parliamentary voting records and you'll find there was (factually) only a handful of Conservative MPs who ever voted against the deals on offer--in fact if you care to do the research, you'll see that it was only 7 of them first time around--so how you can claim "Many in the Conservative party were working to thwart Brexit" is beyond me and so obviously factually incorrect!

Even you refer to Labour's "nuanced" approach--it's been so "nuanced" ever since the start of the debate that it still isn't clear what their stance is.  The leader, before his Damascun change of stance last week has clearly always been for leaving the EU, so too have Len McClukey and many union members, whereas your party membership at large and the vast majority of shadow cabinet members are clearly pro-remain.  How clear is that?  And still you don't attempt to answer the most fundamental question of all: how in the name of sanity are Labour possible going to be able to get a great new deal from the EU when Barnier and all the negotiators know that it would be in the best interestsof the EU to offer the cra**iest of deals knowing that most of the Labour party  (as many shadow cabinet ministers have admitted) will be arguing for remain if it ever comes to a 2nd referendum campaign--as I keep saying it beggars belief and however much you are a denyer doesn't alter facts!

[bycars rob]

2 hours ago, For Us All said:

The ones who have lived through Labour goverments and know what they are about.

Better services, education and more equal society is what I remember and benefitted from and that is what I want for future generations. 

[Bycarsbill]

2 hours ago, Gallifreyan Valiant said:

It is clear they will negotiate a deal then put leave and remain back to the people. Nobody ever voted for a no deal Brexit nobody. Johnson Farage et el all were stating a Norway style deal before. So why are they trying to say a true Brexit is only down the no deal route ?

Farage may be arguing for a no-deal Brexit, but Johnson clearly isn't arguing for a no deal--he was he one to actually put a DEAL on the table--it was Labour, the SNP and Lib-Dems who thwarted a deal and therefore left no deal still, (although IMO unlikely) as a possibility. 

As for your argument about Labour "negotiating a deal then put leave and remain back to the people"; please see my comments to Mr. H above and maybe you can explain (if he can't) why getting a good deal while the EU are so obviously aware that most of Labour is going to campaign for remain is so absurdly fantastical & illogical?

 

Thank goodness that all these points are going to be totally hypothetical anyway, as the chances of Corbyn getting a clear majority in this election are probably as good as mine of scoring a hat-trick for PV as they win the FA cup at Wembley next May!

[Bycarsbill]

24 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

? 

I'm guessing that's a typo and you mean MPs. I was pointing out that it wasn't a "vast majority" and that Bill's assertion that "the Conservative line on Brexit is totally transparent, straightforward and consistent" is utter codswallop. Every single word of it.

See my post above in answer to your earlier one and please accept the challenge (you keep dodging) of trying to make some sense ofl Labour's illogical claim to be negotiating a "good deal" and then the vast majority of your rudderless party campaigning for remain if there were to be a 2nd referendum--they couldn't make it easier for Barnier & Co if they tried!