Brexit again...

[Paul6754]

There is only one solution to this mess, a 2nd referendum. If the result is to leave then leave without a deal as the lies that fueled the leave vote in the 1st referendum would be irrelevant, if it's Remain then the Brexiteers just have to accept it.

There is no betrayal of Democracy or Democratic rights as in a true, fair Democracy Referenda or Elections should not be won on blatant lies.

[geosname]

6 hours ago, Andyregs said:

 

Not necessarily. It doesn’t have to be a first past the post vote. 

 

What would you suggest as an alternative?

[geosname]

2 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

There is only one solution to this mess, a 2nd referendum. If the result is to leave then leave without a deal as the lies that fueled the leave vote in the 1st referendum would be irrelevant, if it's Remain then the Brexiteers just have to accept it.

There is no betrayal of Democracy or Democratic rights as in a true, fair Democracy Referenda or Elections should not be won on blatant lies.

All elections are won on lies mixed in with some truth to sell the manifesto to the great unwashed. Votes are purchased with promises never delivered or undeliverable.

Show me a democracy where politicians don't lie.

[geosname]

7 hours ago, Mario said:

The Brexit deadline is a week away,not enough time to discuss the deal according to some and yet the shadow leader of the commons is demanding more time to be allowed to pay tribute to Speaker Bercow do they have no idea what signs that sends out ? 

The sooner there is an election and this bunch of incompetents on all sides of the political divide are dispatched to history the sooner the better. 

The fly in the ointment being a hung parliament.

Imagine the deals being done to form a coalition.

Indy ref for the SNP,  money for the DUP,  remain for the lib dems, no idea what the independents want..... then throw in the brexit party.

It's the next logical step but could turn into another nightmare we can't wake from.

[geosname]

9 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

There could be no argument against 2 leave results, but it would not stop a campaign to re-join the EU in say 10 years.

If the result came back 51% leave 49% remain 52% didn't vote it would be simply accepted?

[Andyregs]

5 hours ago, geosname said:

What would you suggest as an alternative?

Can’t remember what it’s called, but if there are three options, instead of a cross, rank them 1-3 (ranked voting?) The choice that comes third is eliminated, and the ballots that voted ‘1’ for that are shared between the number 2 picks. Similar to the way the torrid recently picked their new leader without having to vote at each stage. This way, a leave voter can vote 1 and 2 for each leave option, and either way their vote will count as leave. 

[geosname]

47 minutes ago, Andyregs said:

Can’t remember what it’s called, but if there are three options, instead of a cross, rank them 1-3 (ranked voting?) The choice that comes third is eliminated, and the ballots that voted ‘1’ for that are shared between the number 2 picks. Similar to the way the torrid recently picked their new leader without having to vote at each stage. This way, a leave voter can vote 1 and 2 for each leave option, and either way their vote will count as leave. 

I understand what you mean, however it is still flawed I think.

1 remain

2 leave no deal

3 leave whatever deal.

30 million vote, 15 million vote 1 only, 7.5 million vote 2 & 3, 7.5 million vote 3 & 2 so either 2 or 3 gets eliminated.... no way 2 or 3 could win.

Same scenario but 7.5 million vote 1 & 3...... 7.5 million vote 1 & 2.... the leave vote as above..... the leave vote still starts at 15 million ... no way 2 or 3 could catch up.

So we then have another vote between 1 & 3 or 1 & 2..... would that be a single vote?.... I'm losing myself.... I will come back to it

[geosname]

15 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Answer me this anybody..

Which countries are we going to be doing better deals with than we currently have which will make the UK a better place post brexit?  Where is this utopian market place that we are unable to access right now?  How is a free trade deal with China for example going to benefit the UK exact?  Or India or any other country? 

We have free access to a 500M strong market on our doorstep and we want to rip that up in the hope we can get deals with markets on the other side of the world?  Anything we can export to emerging economies will be short term, because they will make it themselves as soon as they can.  China have done that with mobile phones and cars, India are pretty much there and in fact own our Steel and Landrover Jaguar already...

Can anybody seriously answer in straight terms (geo) who we can deal with on better terms than we already get through being an EU member?

It's not an either or question.... one doesn't exclude the other.

Outside the EU we could do deals with the EU  and the rest of the world..... so 500 million plus the rest of the world...... that's the theory.

We could negotiate deals with America, Canada, Australia, Russia, India, China, etc etc etc ..... and Europe as a collective not individual countries.

Again that's the theory.

[Howjy04]

I seriously can’t believe that people think that trade agreements post Brexit aren’t in place.Those people who are bricking it are the ones who have sat on their arses moaning their bags out and not bothered to prepare.We’ll leave one way or another.The UK population voted for it.Remember?

[Howjy04]

You know Jack.

[Heatwave]

17 hours ago, geosname said:

Do you  honestly think that all the people who don't want to leave would just pack up and go home? 

Do you trust politicians that much?

Don't you think there is a possibility of a slew of legal claims hitting the courts to throw a spanner in the works?

1. No - but they would be free to campaign for re-entering the EU like the Leavers campaigned for the first referendum.

2. No!

3. It depends on whether the claimants feel they were lied to before a second referendum. That would be something for the courts to decide but given the democratic processes, both in Parliament and the second referendum, I don't see how anyone could then claim to have had the wool pulled over their eyes.

[Heatwave]

3 hours ago, Andyregs said:

Can’t remember what it’s called, but if there are three options, instead of a cross, rank them 1-3 (ranked voting?) The choice that comes third is eliminated, and the ballots that voted ‘1’ for that are shared between the number 2 picks. Similar to the way the torrid recently picked their new leader without having to vote at each stage. This way, a leave voter can vote 1 and 2 for each leave option, and either way their vote will count as leave. 

Single Transferable Vote. That's what the Lib Dems wanted while in coalition and naively thought the Tories would just give it to them. Instead the Tories called a referendum that was hardly supported and, given the opposition of the Tories and their supporters in the press, it was doomed to defeat.

[Fosse69]

7 hours ago, geosname said:

If the result came back 51% leave 49% remain 52% didn't vote it would be simply accepted?

Unless thresholds are quoted that is the system, the result would more likely to be a larger remain % if a boycott takes place.

[Jacko51]

This discussion confirms my belief that a second referendum, like the first, would be madness.

[Fosse69]

Will the EU consider that an election is likely to result in another hung parliament. If they want a conclusive end to this shambles they could offer an extension to 31/01/2020, on the proviso that instead of an election in December a referendum on Leave or Remain is held. In January if Remain is the result revoke Article 50. Or  if Leave is the result, Parliament to vote on whether to have May`s deal or Johnson`s deal, Withdrawal  to be completed by the end of March.