Brexit again...

[Fosse69]

7 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Another referendum is pointless,the losers,like Swinson just wouldn't accept the result if it didnt suit.

It's EU and Remainer strategy.

Talk of winners and losers is the problem, with Brexit   95% will be losers only 5% will be winners. Any referendum would have to have objectives including how the result would be implemented, so your so called losers would have no argument but they could still moan ineffectively.

[Fosse69]

41 minutes ago, geosname said:

Why?...... just curious.

What is a snap referendum...... it would take weeks to sort out and agree and organise.

Referendums at the usual Government pace can take 18 months to organize, spending months on how the question is phrased on the ballot paper, which gives the more positive slant etc. Cameron said it was put wrong but I cant remember the details. Personally I see no reason why it cant be organised within the usual 6 week election period. I believe the Greeks have organized one in 7 days, but I  assume they use them more often.

[Bycarsbill]

22 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Talk of winners and losers is the problem, with Brexit   95% will be losers only 5% will be winners. Any referendum would have to have objectives including how the result would be implemented, so your so called losers would have no argument but they could still moan ineffectively.

Here you go again with your '(in)famous'percentages.  Where did you get these specific statistics from?

[Bycarsbill]

22 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Keep up man.

The confirmatory vote would be between remain or which ever deal is on the table to leave.  No Deal is off the table if the EU extend...

Ergo, it's not conjecture, its actuals, hence the term confirmatory vote.

Good god!

No deal is NOT off the table until that particular piece of leglislation has been cancelled!  Keep up man!

[Fosse69]

2 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Here you go again with your '(in)famous'percentages.  Where did you get these specific statistics from?

Easy enough, the benefactors of Brexit being the users of tax havens,

[Bycarsbill]

22 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

You are stupid though.

It was a hypothetical suggestion to answer the if remain win the 2nd do we have a third question...

It's not going to happen, I never said it would but you argued that the odds weren't stacked in favour of leave with my suggestion when clearly they were.  Now you have changed tak completely to try and hide the embarrassment of being unable to grasp simple percentages first time around.

Nice try like but dunce corner for you.

Don't know about the "dunce's corner" but you appear to be going round in circles and are now boxed into a corner with your mixture of nonsensical and illogical arguments. Not worth pursuing any further discussion as you're clearly incapable of rational debate--cheerio

[Fosse69]

5 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

No deal is NOT off the table until that particular piece of leglislation has been cancelled!  Keep up man!

At least December 2020 with the current deal

[geosname]

25 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Referendums at the usual Government pace can take 18 months to organize, spending months on how the question is phrased on the ballot paper, which gives the more positive slant etc. Cameron said it was put wrong but I cant remember the details. Personally I see no reason why it cant be organised within the usual 6 week election period. I believe the Greeks have organized one in 7 days, but I  assume they use them more often.

After 3+ years of politicians failing to agree which hand to wipe there ass with you think 6 weeks..... I said you were an optimist. 

[Bycarsbill]

4 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Easy enough, the benefactors of Brexit being the users of tax havens,

I don't necessarily disagree in general terms but that's still anecdotal and not statistical evidence.  However I do totally agree that the poorest (within which category are many leave voters) will inevitably be hardest hit in any Brexit scenario. That's one of the biggest anomolies of this whole sad affair.  No economic study has yet shown anything other than we would be better off as we are as members of The EU and not outside it! I am genuinely torn; as an economic argument it's totally crazy to leave the EU on the other hand, I'm a democrat and if you believe in democracy then the original referendum result should stand--it's a right' buggers muddle' whichever way you voted!

[Fosse69]

16 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

I don't necessarily disagree in general terms but that's still anecdotal and not statistical evidence.  However I do totally agree that the poorest (within which category are many leave voters) will inevitably be hardest hit in any Brexit scenario. That's one of the biggest anomolies of this whole sad affair.  No economic study has yet shown anything other than we would be better off as we are as members of The EU and not outside it! I am genuinely torn; as an economic argument it's totally crazy to leave the EU on the other hand, I'm a democrat and if you believe in democracy then the original referendum result should stand--it's a right' buggers muddle' whichever way you voted!

I agree, it is a shambles, I don't think there is a right or simple decision. Referendums and Representative Democracy conflict and should not be mixed, but they are, how it will be solved I haven't a clue. My worry is it will go on for ever, as Farage said the UK will never be the same after October 2019.

[1]

can someone answer a question for me:

The withdrawal bill that has been agreed has to go through a second reading where MPs will get the chance to potentially vote in favour of amendments, such as being members of the customs union, second referendum etc.

What happens then, if these amendments are supported at the committee stage in the UK? Does the agreement have to then be reviewed by the EU again, as it will no longer be the 'signed off' version from Brussels?

[geosname]

8 minutes ago, 1 said:

can someone answer a question for me:

The withdrawal bill that has been agreed has to go through a second reading where MPs will get the chance to potentially vote in favour of amendments, such as being members of the customs union, second referendum etc.

What happens then, if these amendments are supported at the committee stage in the UK? Does the agreement have to then be reviewed by the EU again, as it will no longer be the 'signed off' version from Brussels?

If we agree a customs union have we actually left?

[1]

3 minutes ago, geosname said:

If we agree a customs union have we actually left?

That is an example of one amendment that seems to have been muted with some backing.

So will it get kicked back to the EU in an altered form, needing another nod of approval?

[Bycarsbill]

4 minutes ago, geosname said:

If we agree a customs union have we actually left?

Technically, probably yes.  In reality probably no--we'll be 'halfway in and halfway out' neither Brexit nor remain!!

[1]

18 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Why not? If during the Article 50 process parliament decides that an update of the countries view of the actual  Brexit is required, democracy is continuous. 

Exactly, a second referendum would be styled as an updated version of the original question, not a re-run.

Simply putting yes or no on the ballot paper would be a democratic outrage.

I think offering something like:

Leave with the negotiated deal

Leave with no deal

Remain

^ That would be acceptable and in line with democratic principles. It would also sort out the disagreement around "when people voted leave, they knew we could leave with no deal" (or visa versa) by giving tangible data on the subject.