Brexit again...

[Bycarsbill]

5 hours ago, colin said:

What happened in 2017? Corbyn was 20 points behind in the polls. He was being run down like this (as he still is by the rich press) and not expected to last. When in fact he got 40 percent of the vote share, 30 more seats than the previous election and the largest increase in vote share as a Labour leader since 1945. 

That was 2017 and the next election will be a much more nuanced campaign with different issues and a hangover from Brexit (whichever way we eventually leave, or don't) and more an issue of 'leavers' and 'remainers' than a straight forward right v left battle.  From the plummeting Labour party membership numbers to the in-fighting at the top of the party and it's complcated, equivocal Brexit stance, Corbyn is a spent force and may yet not be its leader if the GE is any later than early next year!

[mr.hobblesworth]

10 hours ago, Bycarsbill said:

That's the whole point--Labour has been constantly trying to 'ride two horses' throughout the whole debate.  At some point (when and if a deal is struck, a general election or referendum occurs)they will have to come down on one side or the other--and that's when they do have a real problem--with the "labour heartlands" as you put it and Jezza on one side and the vast majority (of their fast-reducing) membership on the other!

I don't think we've been trying to do the two horses thing, I just think we've not taken a side. And even though the referendum was such a binary decision, as a party I don't see why we should need to when trying to sort out the mess. People seem desperate for simple pledges, single line policies, but with such a fragmented country and a complicated process, I don't see why this is so important. We're not trying to pitch a film. It's odd how Corbyn is often portrayed as being an extremist yet on Brexit we have the most sensible and middle-ground policy going.

As for the membership, we've lost around 40,000 out of about 560,000, which is unsurprising given the issues with Brexit. I'm sure we'll be ok, what with still being the second largest political party in Europe.

[mr.hobblesworth]

8 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

With the state of the Tory Party at the moment any self-respecting Labour Party should be 30 points ahead in the polls.  It is a sad reflection on Corbyn and his mates that they aren't.

I think a party could be offering free alcohol and handjobs and they'd still be struggling in this climate. Nothing seems to cut through Brexit.

3 hours ago, Bycarsbill said:

That was 2017 and the next election will be a much more nuanced campaign with different issues and a hangover from Brexit (whichever way we eventually leave, or don't) and more an issue of 'leavers' and 'remainers' than a straight forward right v left battle.  From the plummeting Labour party membership numbers to the in-fighting at the top of the party and it's complcated, equivocal Brexit stance, Corbyn is a spent force and may yet not be its leader if the GE is any later than early next year!

Do you think we'll have an election before Brexit is sorted? I hope you are right (it would hopefully pop the tyres of those yellow tories if we do) but I can't see it. 

Also, "nuanced"? You're having a laugh aren't you? Nuance from Mr Surrender Bill and his mates in the press who talk of "enemies of the people" and "put him in the Cor-bin"? All the tories seem capable of saying is "Let's get Brexit done". You talk of our plummeting membership - it's still over 3 times the size of your party! You talk of infighting - how many of your front bench have resigned, how many MPS have had the whip removed? Glass houses and all that Bill. I really welcome an election on issues other than Brexit and believe that if given fair coverage then we can get our message across.

[Paul6754]

12 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Every time I see a quoted post from the Beagle he is muttering about lies, lies and more lies from the Remain side.  I posted this at the beginning of the week which lists a huge number of blatant untruths and which had reportedly originated from the Brexit Central website:

https://m.facebook.com/LBC/posts/10156995473506558

Beagle's only response was " There's lots of lies going round on social media, on both sides. "  Yet despite claiming lies from the Remain side in post after post, he now admits that the Leavers tell porkies as well.  Rob, have you got the option of changing a word in particular posts so that when Beagle types "lie" in changes into something like "cake"?  I like cake.

I've taken Regal to task on this point before. He calls predictions lies, a prediction or a forecast which doesn't come true is not a lie, a lie is making a statement you know to be untrue.

[Regal Beagle]

On 12/10/2019 at 09:52, Iron Curtain said:

You are right... I said taking the gamble on Lloyd could be cost efficient, he wouldnt be a starter but could prove to be a good back up. That hasn’t worked out and I was wrong.

You said we should leave Norman alone as owning a football club was hard and although no doing a great job wasn’t doing anything wrong. Care to admit you were wrong... like you want the politicians to do? 

I’m also not lecturing people on Climate change 👍

 

I don't believe I ever said those things and so I wont be apologising for them.

 

The climate change thing was an example of how crazy your logic was. It's not relevant anyway now because if your claims were about me supporting Norman then they're simply not true, unless you are going back to 2012-13 in which case I probably did support Norman as did the vast majority of Vale fans.

 

It's a very strange tactic anyway to even bring it up in a brexit thread.

[Regal Beagle]

23 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Every time I see a quoted post from the Beagle he is muttering about lies, lies and more lies from the Remain side.  I posted this at the beginning of the week which lists a huge number of blatant untruths and which had reportedly originated from the Brexit Central website:

https://m.facebook.com/LBC/posts/10156995473506558

Beagle's only response was " There's lots of lies going round on social media, on both sides. "  Yet despite claiming lies from the Remain side in post after post, he now admits that the Leavers tell porkies as well.  Rob, have you got the option of changing a word in particular posts so that when Beagle types "lie" in changes into something like "cake"?  I like cake.

As I've posted before, I started pointing out remainer lies because that was the only argument any of you lot could put up about brexit, even the truthful stuff was being called a lie.

I'm also in a minority of people in this thread who not only calls out lies but then posts reason and evidence for them being lies.

I also admitted there had been lies on the leave side years ago on here, you know this as well because I'm almost certain it was in a conversation with you.

So it's deliberately untrue for you to be presenting it as me "now" admitting that there were lies on both side.

 

It's also interesting how you can't/won't admit the many remainer lies which I've demonstrated.

 

9 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

I've taken Regal to task on this point before. He calls predictions lies, a prediction or a forecast which doesn't come true is not a lie, a lie is making a statement you know to be untrue.

 

Haha that's not even close to true.

Predictions can be lies though surely? What happens if a prediction is known to be inaccurate/untrue?

 

And either way, if the "predictions" were not lies, why on earth should be believe the "experts" who have got every prediction wrong on this subject?

 

[Iron Curtain]

1 hour ago, Regal Beagle said:

I don't believe I ever said those things and so I wont be apologising for them.

 

The climate change thing was an example of how crazy your logic was. It's not relevant anyway now because if your claims were about me supporting Norman then they're simply not true, unless you are going back to 2012-13 in which case I probably did support Norman as did the vast majority of Vale fans.

 

It's a very strange tactic anyway to even bring it up in a brexit thread.

Not owning up to being wrong, selective memory on what was said, slippery language... Politicians on the Brexit issue, or Regal Begal? 

Pot, Kettle, black.

Those in glass houses and all that.

[Regal Beagle]

1 hour ago, Iron Curtain said:

Not owning up to being wrong, selective memory on what was said, slippery language... Politicians on the Brexit issue, or Regal Begal? 

Pot, Kettle, black.

Those in glass houses and all that.

I own up to it when I am wrong. It just doesn't happen very often.

Are you going to own up to being wrong on this issue and apologise to me? I very much doubt it.

Talk about selective memory? You're actively making things up. Totally bizarre.

 

Post evidence or apologise.

[Iron Curtain]

2 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

I own up to it when I am wrong. It just doesn't happen very often.

Are you going to own up to being wrong on this issue and apologise to me? I very much doubt it.

Talk about selective memory? You're actively making things up. Totally bizarre.

 

Post evidence or apologise.

You sound more and more like a politician... hence why I posted this in the Brexit thread.

Your words may say one thing (much like a media trained politician) but your position is there to be judged by the masses who could see you for what you were.

It’s very simple for people to search the word “Norman” under your posts and they can judge for themselves where you sat on the Norman defence scale.
 

 

[Iron Curtain]

28 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

I own up to it when I am wrong. It just doesn't happen very often.

Apart from when you kept defending Norman 😂😂

Sometimes it’s not the frequency of the things you get wrong... but the severity!

 

[Jacko51]

" Norman has put his own cash in to pay the bills over the past few years. You cannot deny that."

Yes we could.

" .They try to play the victim every time in these little spats withNorman . I'm glad we have a chairman standing up for his principles "

Principles and Norman in the same post.  Amazing

" So we can't discount people based on their financial position becauseNorman is currently not putting money into the club even though he has put millions in over the past few years "

No he didn't.

" It is my belief thatNorman has signed players in the past. It had been my belief that he had not done it whilst Aspin was here. "

Ben Whitfield.

 

[geosname]

4 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

As I've posted before, I started pointing out remainer lies because that was the only argument any of you lot could put up about brexit, even the truthful stuff was being called a lie.

I'm also in a minority of people in this thread who not only calls out lies but then posts reason and evidence for them being lies.

I also admitted there had been lies on the leave side years ago on here, you know this as well because I'm almost certain it was in a conversation with you.

So it's deliberately untrue for you to be presenting it as me "now" admitting that there were lies on both side.

 

It's also interesting how you can't/won't admit the many remainer lies which I've demonstrated.

 

 

Haha that's not even close to true.

Predictions can be lies though surely? What happens if a prediction is known to be inaccurate/untrue?

 

And either way, if the "predictions" were not lies, why on earth should be believe the "experts" who have got every prediction wrong on this subject?

 

Predictions can't be lies unless you lie about the prediction.... they are simply guesses.... however educated they may be they remain guesses.... if you lie about a prediction it stops being a prediction and becomes a lie

[Iron Curtain]

26 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

" Norman has put his own cash in to pay the bills over the past few years. You cannot deny that."

Yes we could.

" .They try to play the victim every time in these little spats withNorman . I'm glad we have a chairman standing up for his principles "

Principles and Norman in the same post.  Amazing

" So we can't discount people based on their financial position becauseNorman is currently not putting money into the club even though he has put millions in over the past few years "

No he didn't.

" It is my belief thatNorman has signed players in the past. It had been my belief that he had not done it whilst Aspin was here. "

Ben Whitfield.

 

Queue the right honourable Beagle from the SDL and his squirming out of these comments by twisting his statements and the context in which they were made.

The people can see what you said Mr Beagle and you will be judged accordingly.

 

 

[Regal Beagle]

18 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

Queue the right honourable Beagle from the SDL and his squirming out of these comments by twisting his statements and the context in which they were made.

The people can see what you said Mr Beagle and you will be judged accordingly.

That isn't what you said though.

 

You said "very supportive of Norman staying on at PVFC" alongside something like Norman has done nothing wrong.

 

Those quotes prove neither of those at all.

 

That's not squirming, that is the truth. Cold hard facts.

 

You will be judged as a liar if you carry this on without posting actual evidence.

[Regal Beagle]

52 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

" Norman has put his own cash in to pay the bills over the past few years. You cannot deny that."

Yes we could.

" .They try to play the victim every time in these little spats withNorman . I'm glad we have a chairman standing up for his principles "

Principles and Norman in the same post.  Amazing

" So we can't discount people based on their financial position becauseNorman is currently not putting money into the club even though he has put millions in over the past few years "

No he didn't.

" It is my belief thatNorman has signed players in the past. It had been my belief that he had not done it whilst Aspin was here. "

Ben Whitfield.

 

 

On 09/10/2019 at 10:24, Jacko51 said:

I get sick of the “whataboutery” mode of debating on this thread. It’s schoolyard stuff. 

 

 

How on earth do you reconcile these two posts Jacko?

 

Were you lying when you said you were sick of "whataboutery" or do you just think it shouldn't apply to you?

 

Imagine bringing up Ben Whitfield in a brexit discussion. Christ almighty. Is it November 1st yet?