Brexit again...

[geosname]

Regal, you don't know or understand what you post, read back.

 

 

 

The debate was about the PROCESS of democracy, my view was honesty should be a part of the process, your view is it shouldn't. Once you realized your views were in effect sanctioning lying you tried to revert to the definition of democracy. If you don't mind being lied to then I suggest you don't mind lying yourself.

 

This conversation is degenerating, lets agree to disagree.

 

Honesty is not a requirement of the democratic process.

The people who take part in that process should be honest but they are not and never have been. The fact that politicians lie to win a seat and/or gain overall control has become the norm within the process and is accepted by the electorate, knowingly or otherwise.

Some of the blame can be attributed to party politics but not all.

The problem of politicians not being truthful is so ingrained that even if they do speak the truth no bugger believes them.... the only time people suspend disbelief is when they want to use a statement to further their own argument.

[For Us All]

The problems the French currently have are nothing to with their manufacturing sector which is what the discussion was about, the current problems are more to do with rising fuel costs, tax issues, immigration, Macron and his government. I did not say the UK should follow the French example, I just pointed to one of the reasons why the French have a larger manufacturing base than the UK, ie they protect and grow their key wealth and job creating businesses.

 

Take the French Pharmaceutical company Sanofi the 3rd largest in the world, other than Plavix I struggle to name another major selling drug discovered in France, how did they become larger than Novartis, Glaxo, Merck etc and who paid for it. France has 3 major car companies, more than the UK, all 3 or at least some have been propped up by French taxpayer money and probably continue to do so whereas the UK allowed most of it's car industry and jobs to disappear albeit after the government tried to prop it up for a period of time.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/jan/21/car-industry-french-government-fears

 

The UK needs a strong mixed economy not one massively dependent on the City of London. So what did Harold McMillan think about the richest country in the world, America, which has some overseas territories and spends mega amounts of money on maintaining a military.

 

Nothing I post on OVF will "Add anything to the current dire situation" (I'm assuming that you mean Brexit and not the Vale) and I hate to tell you the same is also true of anything you or any other person posts on OVF.

 

So you don't appear to be very informed your self and you have preached more than once about people posting non-footie stuff on OVF, only when it suits you eh? and there's a word to describe that behavior.

 

Sir Jim Ratcliffe,the chemicals billionaire and Britain's richest man has written to Junker demanding a reduction in green taxes and regulations to sustain a competitive chemical industry in Europe.He told Junker that "nobody in my business seriously invests in Europe".INEOS chairman Ratcliffe has recently announced a €3billion methane gas unit in Antwerp but he warned that other chemical firms will invest elsewhere.

He said "They will be welcomed by the USA and China with a warm smile and a good strategy,Europe is no longer competitive."

Sir Jim also said the EU has the world's most expensive energy and labour laws and added that "Worst of all,it has green taxes that at best can be described as foolish,at worst as simply stupid,as they are having the opposite effect to how they were intended."

[JohnJames]

It’s a disgrace that Europeans don’t want their citizens living in slum shanty towns so greedy billionaires like Ratcliffe can accumulate more wealth and pollute the planet even more.

[Fosse69]

Honesty is not a requirement of the democratic process.

The people who take part in that process should be honest but they are not and never have been. The fact that politicians lie to win a seat and/or gain overall control has become the norm within the process and is accepted by the electorate, knowingly or otherwise.

Some of the blame can be attributed to party politics but not all.

The problem of politicians not being truthful is so ingrained that even if they do speak the truth no bugger believes them.... the only time people suspend disbelief is when they want to use a statement to further their own argument.

Of course there is always Churchill`s view of democracy " The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter ", but his priorities as an MP were, country first, then voters views, lastly his/her seat.

[For Us All]

Of course there is always Churchill`s view of democracy " The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter ", but his priorities as an MP were, country first, then voters views, lastly his/her seat.

 

Churchill also said:-

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

[geosname]

his priorities as an MP were, country first, then voters views, lastly his/her seat.

 

Therein lies part of the problem, the voters are the country... whether they be rich or poor they are the heart to which politicians appeal, without them there is nothing.

[Fosse69]

Therein lies part of the problem, the voters are the country... whether they be rich or poor they are the heart to which politicians appeal, without them there is nothing.

But the MPs`priorities nowadays appear to be their seats.

[Paul6754]

Honesty is not a requirement of the democratic process.

The people who take part in that process should be honest but they are not and never have been. The fact that politicians lie to win a seat and/or gain overall control has become the norm within the process and is accepted by the electorate, knowingly or otherwise.

Some of the blame can be attributed to party politics but not all.

The problem of politicians not being truthful is so ingrained that even if they do speak the truth no bugger believes them.... the only time people suspend disbelief is when they want to use a statement to further their own argument.

 

Geo, That's your opinion but I don't share it for the reasons I've given.

[geosname]

But the MPs`priorities nowadays appear to be their seats.

 

Sadly mate it's the only thing that matters to them..... they need a swift kick in their seat

[geosname]

Geo, That's your opinion but I don't share it for the reasons I've given.

 

It's a fact my friend, not simply an opinion, if you removed all the politicians who are not honest parliament would be populated by rats...... oh wait.

As a simple example...... how many politicians were investigated under the expenses scandal?...... how many resigned because of if?...

Because they convince the electorate they believe what they say isn't the same as being honest or not lying.... if they were honest they wouldn't get elected.

[Paul6754]

Paul your points lack clarity, and analytical robustness. Your propensity to.immmediately resort to.personal insults illustrates the nature of your unacceptable approach. Your view that evidence equates to one person here issuing a rebuke about my posts is as far removed from evidence as it is possible to be. I refuse to engage further with You because you simply insult people who disagree with you. You seem to be a good fit for the project fear approach to which many ardent remainers attach themselves. Lo es terminado.

 

EV, So you just use a woolly sweeping statement rather than answer the questions I posed to you, I'm sorry but your reply doesn't have any clarity.

 

Your first post contained insults, if you conner tack it dunner give it.

 

Evidence is evidence, look further back on this thread and on the Extinction.... thread and you will find the posts referred to.

 

The first insults were from you.

 

Project fear....yet another sweeping woolly statement.

 

Didn't do Spanish at school, did French and Latin, bien par moi....hope I've got that right, it's been a long time.

[Regal Beagle]

Regal, you don't know or understand what you post, read back.

 

 

 

The debate was about the PROCESS of democracy, my view was honesty should be a part of the process, your view is it shouldn't. Once you realized your views were in effect sanctioning lying you tried to revert to the definition of democracy. If you don't mind being lied to then I suggest you don't mind lying yourself.

 

This conversation is degenerating, lets agree to disagree.

 

That's not the debate at all.

 

The point you were trying to make is that Brexit is not democratic because the leave side told lies.

 

I challenged you because whether or not lies were told, if the electorate vote for how they wish to be governed, that is the exact definition of democracy.

 

Honesty is irrelevant as to whether or not something is democratic, it simply is not part of the definition of democracy.

 

 

I have a further point that by claiming that the leave side are liars and the remain side are merely terribly at predicting anything, you are either deluded or dishonest.

 

I'm not denying that lies were told. I recognise that lies were told on both sides as they have been in every political campaign ever.

 

My biased opinion is that there were significantly more lies told on the remain side. If your biased opinion opposes that then we can agree to disagree, but to suggest that the result is tarnished because one side only were not playing fair is utter tripe.

 

Furthermore, you have had another dig at me there by trying to claim that I support lying and that means I don't mind lying myself. That isn't truthful whatsoever Paul and I'd ask you to provide a single scrap of evidence to support that but I know you will not find any.

[Regal Beagle]

It’s a disgrace that Europeans don’t want their citizens living in slum shanty towns so greedy billionaires like Ratcliffe can accumulate more wealth and pollute the planet even more.

 

Europeans or European Union? the 2 are not interchangeable.

[For Us All]

Churchill didn't agree. He said the best argument against democracy was a five minute chat with the average voter. I'm inclined to agree with him!!!

 

Please see update.😁

[For Us All]

We are all dead in the long term, I will not last Smoggs 50 years.

 

When Jacob talks,everyone listens.