McKirdy & Robinson...Goodbye ?

[osprey]

Can anyone name a manager who has never signed a player who turned out to be rubbish at that time or for that team?


Thought not

[robf]

6 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

Not sure I agree re being fit. When he has started he’s looked knackered after 60 mins.

By the way - that's a different thing from your earlier 'lazy' comments isn't it. Not being fit is entirely different from being 'lazy' 

I think labelling someone as 'lazy' implies unprofessionalism and to be honest that riles me. I can take the point he looks "knackered" through either injury or lack of match fitness but I just don't like the 'lazy' tag being bandied around. I don't think he's lazy, he's a professional footballer who's been off the pace during some games. 

[Doha]

On 30/12/2020 at 09:54, osprey said:

Can anyone name a manager who has never signed a player who turned out to be rubbish at that time or for that team?


Thought not

Yes but there’s so many of them. At once. In a short period of time. 

it’s not exactly a Woodgate to Real Madrid sort of one off is it. 

[valiant_593]

4 minutes ago, robf said:

By the way - that's a different thing from your earlier 'lazy' comments isn't it. Not being fit is entirely different from being 'lazy' 

I think labelling someone as 'lazy' implies unprofessionalism and to be honest that riles me. I can take the point he looks "knackered" through either injury or lack of match fitness but I just don't like the 'lazy' tag being bandied around. I don't think he's lazy, he's a professional footballer who's been off the pace during some games. 

Oh i think it’s both. I’ve seen him tire in games and I can’t remember which specific game it was, but he played after being left out games prior to that and literally didn’t move. I think he’s lazy. If he’s such a professional footballer he would be on the bench ahead of three youth players and not transfer listed after only joining the club in the summer. 

[valiant_593]

8 minutes ago, osprey said:

Can anyone name a manager who has never signed a player who turned out to be rubbish at that time or for that team?


Thought not

All managers do. Not all managers have signed as many bad players as askey with such few decent ones. 

[valiant_593]

10 minutes ago, robf said:

But playing devil's advocate it's a chicken and egg situation... 

Move One: Robinson was loaned to us to get match fitness so he was never going to be fully fit. He then gets criticised by fans as he's off the pace (i.e. not match fit)

Move Two: Robinson doesn't get any game time and no run in the team so you say he looks "knackered" - which again is because he isn't match fit

However... last season he got a whole run of games at another League Two side - Colchester. He made nineteen STARTS and ended up with eleven goals. I'd argue that the regular starts (compared to the number of sub apperances while at Vale) helped make him match fit and when match fit he proved himself a goal threat.

 

Don’t disagree. However he clearly hasn’t showed askey anything in training to make askey pick him. He did well at Colchester there’s no denying that. That was my one hope when we signed him that possibly he had improved as a player - he certainly hasn’t on what he has shown for us. Really a pro player should be match fit, he’s not had injuries and personally I think the only reason he only played 5/10 mins here and there is because he’s been poor when he’s started and showed nothing in training 

[dishydave]

It happens to every club Guthrie is a good example for Bradford. What we can take from this is Askey seems to be getting this January window to try and sort it out. As long as they're out of the squad there wages don't go towards the cap so we should bring 2 in at least I just hope we get recruitment right for a change

[robf]

12 minutes ago, Doha said:

Yes but there’s so many of them. At once. In a short period of time. 

I'm somewhat concerned by that too. The experienced core of the side - Brown, Legge, Joyce and Pope - which we've relied on for some time now are other manager's signings. Conlon, Worrall and Montano (also key players) were also signed by other managers.

Out of Askey's 21 permanent signings, I'd only class three (Amoo, Hurst and Rodney) as quality signings. 

I'd class four as solid but not spectacular (Brisley, Visser, Atkinson, Fitzpatrick)

I'd say the jury is still out on Burgess, Crookes and Cullen. Two potentially have time to improve, the other has injuries to overcome.

The other eleven (so over half his signings) have been failures unfortunately - Bennett, Kennedy, Lloyd, Evans, Maddison, Archer, Mills, Whitehead, Robinson, McKirdy, Browne

[Playa Amodores]

16 minutes ago, robf said:

I'm somewhat concerned by that too. The experienced core of the side - Brown, Legge, Joyce and Pope - which we've relied on for some time now are other manager's signings. Conlon, Worrall and Montano (also key players) were also signed by other managers.

Out of Askey's 21 permanent signings, I'd only class three (Amoo, Hurst and Rodney) as quality signings. 

I'd class four as solid but not spectacular (Brisley, Visser, Atkinson, Fitzpatrick)

I'd say the jury is still out on Burgess, Crookes and Cullen. Two potentially have time to improve, the other has injuries to overcome.

The other eleven (so over half his signings) have been failures unfortunately - Bennett, Kennedy, Lloyd, Evans, Maddison, Archer, Mills, Whitehead, Robinson, McKirdy, Browne

Rob, I was really excited about the Archer signing when i heard it on the radio. I was on my way to a home game at the time, but like so many others, I don’t think he was given a chance. Askey seems to sign players and then not play them or can’t manage their expectations. 
With how many ex-Macc players we’ve signed I can recall fans enquiring why we hadn’t signed one of their forwards. With Macc being in turmoil  at the beginning of the season, would they have been available on free transfers.? I’m also aware that as Bill Bell said after signing Bernie Slaven, ‘There’s no such thing as a free transfer’

 

[robf]

7 minutes ago, Playa Amodores said:

Askey seems to sign players and then not play them or can’t manage their expectations.

I think to some extent there's an element of luck or fate with some moves. Archer scored that excellent goal and then was injured. If that injury hadn't have happened who knows...

I think there's a lot of bad luck involved in failed signings. Reading through accounts from players there's clubs where everything just clicks and others where for whatever reason (on and off the pitch) it just doesn't work out. Mitch Clark is a good example. Two spells, near enough the same squad yet markedly different form which is almost certainly down to things off the pitch. 

If you look at it the other way - Alex Hurst is benefiting right now. At the start of the season some were questioning if he would get a chance / was good enough. Now, thanks to injuries on the wings he got a chance. It was still up to him to grab that chance (which he has certainly done) but without those injuries he could have still been on the fringes while Worrall, Montano, Amoo etc played ahead of him.

So, I do think success and failure at teams is sometimes a matter of good or bad luck...

[mr.hobblesworth]

38 minutes ago, robf said:

I'm somewhat concerned by that too. The experienced core of the side - Brown, Legge, Joyce and Pope - which we've relied on for some time now are other manager's signings. Conlon, Worrall and Montano (also key players) were also signed by other managers.

Out of Askey's 21 permanent signings, I'd only class three (Amoo, Hurst and Rodney) as quality signings. 

I'd class four as solid but not spectacular (Brisley, Visser, Atkinson, Fitzpatrick)

I'd say the jury is still out on Burgess, Crookes and Cullen. Two potentially have time to improve, the other has injuries to overcome.

The other eleven (so over half his signings) have been failures unfortunately - Bennett, Kennedy, Lloyd, Evans, Maddison, Archer, Mills, Whitehead, Robinson, McKirdy, Browne

I think to call them failures is unfair. Browne didn't 'fail', I'd argue that Lloyd served his purpose, Archer was a cheap punt that didn't work out...

[robf]

9 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

I think to call them failures is unfair. Browne didn't 'fail', I'd argue that Lloyd served his purpose, Archer was a cheap punt that didn't work out...

I think you can.

Browne - I'm not saying he, the footballer "failed" but the move failed because he left. He left which ultimately means his move to Vale was unsuccessful and if it ain't a success, it's a failure.

Archer... If a punt doesn't work out then again... it's a failure.

Lloyd, I would argue didn't serve his purpose as he didn't have any meaningful impact. He didn't deserve the vitriol and seems a decent bloke but he can surely only be classed as a failure too.

To turn it around - Browne is perhaps debatable but which part of Archer and Lloyd's spells can be classed as successful?

[mr.hobblesworth]

2 minutes ago, robf said:

I think you can.

Browne - I'm not saying he, the person "failed" but the move failed because he left. He left which ultimately means his move to Vale was unsuccessful and if it ain't a success, it's a failure.

Archer... If a punt doesn't work out then again... it's a failure.

Lloyd, I would argue didn't serve his purpose as he didn't have any meaningful impact. He didn't deserve the vitriol and seems a decent bloke but he can surely only be classed as a failure too.

To turn it around - Browne is perhaps debatable but which part of Archer and Lloyd's spells can be classed as successful?

Browne was a success, he played well and earned a new contract. The fact that he subsequently left doesn't change the fact that he did well. Many players leave clubs when fans and management want them to stay, doesn't mean they were failures. 

Lloyd was a cheap squad player, he fulfilled his remit. Archer was a glorified trialist, the club took a look and opted to release. I'd expect most clubs have a couple of punts on their books, cheap long shots. Players are not necessarily a failure if things don't work out.

[robf]

6 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Players are not necessarily a failure if things don't work out.

I don't think you got my point. I am not talking about players as failures I am talking about transfers being success or failures.

If "things don't work out" then that makes the transfer a failure. 

I take the point that Browne may not be a failure but that still leaves ten other signings that are "failures" and I would certainly include Lloyd and Archer as two of those.

Again, as per my previous post - if not, what part of their stays at Vale constitute a success?

[TJHValiant]

What blows my mind is that Robinson and McKirdy were almost certainly our “marquee” signings of the summer given their stature and wages. 
 

Two mediocre league 2 players our best and biggest signings...let that sink in.