General Erection - 12th December 2019

[Fosse69]

6 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Well,I dont go into any election or referendum voting to lose,do you?If I did manage to lose,which it did a couple of times in the 70's & 90's,I accepted defeat and tried to get on with my life.I didn't go round calling everybody names and demanding another vote.

We wouldn't need an election and we wouldn't have had three and a half years of dithering and delay if the losers had accepted defeat in 2016.This has never happened in my lifetime and says a lot about our politics and the times we live in.

Learn to accept defeat and move on,like we used to do.This is the only answer to avoid all this chaos.

You know it makes sense.

Did May accept not having a majority No, She bought a majority off the DUP, instead of calling for a National Govt to solve this disaster, and ensured it continued to fester. Moving on as you call it could take 50 years according to Mogg.

[Jacko51]

10 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Learn to accept defeat and move on,like we used to do.This is the only answer to avoid all this chaos.

 

Tell me a single occasion when a political party, having lost an election, has simply accepted it and not tried to win next time.  Tell me why Farage admitted he wouldn't accept defeat and move on if the referendum vote was close. 

The answer to avoiding all this chaos would have been for the ERG and their ilk to support the PM of the day rather than make strenuous attempts to knife her in the back.

[Bycarsbill]

27 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

But the system which was offered on the ballot paper was the hugely unmanageable alternative vote system, not proportional representation.  We have never been offered the option of proportional representation.

PR isn't faultless!  Most developed European countriesuse PR and that inevitibly means hung parliaments and coalition government. Some would say that our last experience of that between 2010-2015 was far from perfect.  And, if you look at the Italians as an example of a PR election system, they've had contless numbers of governments since the 1950s & something like an average of 16 months for the length of each goverment.  That's why very little gets done in Italy and why their economy is sliding badly!

[mr.hobblesworth]

7 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

You miss my point, mate.  There are lies being spread by both sides and stupid, pig headed confrontation by both sides.  None of it is mollifying.  By your own admission you have a blinkered view of this so you cannot in all conscience accuse other people of being senseless when you are so one-eyed yourself.

No, I think I present a one-eyed view on here as I'm trying to get a pro-Labour message across. That doesn't mean I'm blind to what's actually going on although obviously my view is skewed by my beliefs. If Boles had talked about the need for a centre ground so people who didn't want socialism or deals with Trump had someone to vote for, then I wouldn't have found it a fraction as infuriating. My issue is with him and others positioning themselves as the sensible thoughtful option, opposed to the hotheads and rampant dogmatists in the Labour and Conservative parties, whilst pedalling right wing tropes and spreading lies, being anything but sensible or thoughtful. I don't think Boles, or Swinson, or JO'B actually believe that Corbyn is an anti-semite, or that Momentum are "storm-troopers" but they choose to be disingenuous whilst simultaneously presenting themselves as above all that. 

[mr.hobblesworth]

Interesting...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farages-shock-peerage-claim-20860581

Quote

 

Asked by the Mirror what he had been promised in return for ditching his plan to run 600 candidates, he said: “Nothing, and I have asked for nothing.  I don't want anything.”

Asked if he was offered a peerage, he said: “I was offered one last Friday.

“Ridiculous – the thought they can buy me, a high-paid job; but I'm not interested, I don't want to know.”

 

"They offered me nothing. Oh yeah, they offered me a peerage."

[cheshirevaliant]

The issue, in my view Mr H, is you are trying to get an anti-Tory message across, rather than a pro Labour one. Don't get me wrong, I think many of the more right leaning posters on here are doing the same in terms of getting an anti-Labour view across. 

I think it is a shame that, after being in politics for the best part of a decade, the Conservatives cannot fight an election based on the good things they have done in that time, as frankly there are very few. I also think it's a shame that Labour can't get their act together enough to put across their argument as to why they will run the country in a better fashion. Corbyn currently cannot run his parliamentary party effectively, a group of around 270(?) people, and has not been able to since he became leader, so why should anyone believe that he could run a country of 60m effectively?  

[For Us All]

33 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

PR isn't faultless!  Most developed European countriesuse PR and that inevitibly means hung parliaments and coalition government. Some would say that our last experience of that between 2010-2015 was far from perfect.  And, if you look at the Italians as an example of a PR election system, they've had contless numbers of governments since the 1950s & something like an average of 16 months for the length of each goverment.  That's why very little gets done in Italy and why their economy is sliding badly!

Good point Bill,we rarely get a goverment serving two terms or more and we end up either getting either the Tories or Labour.Both are unable to satisfy the electorate and end up trying to undo what the previous party has done.It's a merry go round and the electorate get fed up of the current goverment and vote them out in the hope that it brings change.

It rarely does.

[Jacko51]

47 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

PR isn't faultless!  Most developed European countriesuse PR and that inevitibly means hung parliaments and coalition government. Some would say that our last experience of that between 2010-2015 was far from perfect.  And, if you look at the Italians as an example of a PR election system, they've had contless numbers of governments since the 1950s & something like an average of 16 months for the length of each goverment.  That's why very little gets done in Italy and why their economy is sliding badly!

Italy is always used as a reason not to have PR but it is successful elsewhere. 

[For Us All]

46 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Tell me a single occasion when a political party, having lost an election, has simply accepted it and not tried to win next time.  Tell me why Farage admitted he wouldn't accept defeat and move on if the referendum vote was close. 

The answer to avoiding all this chaos would have been for the ERG and their ilk to support the PM of the day rather than make strenuous attempts to knife her in the back.

I'm not saying don't try to win next time,that's a given.When was the last time somebody tried to fight to overturn an election or referendum that they had lost in the UK?And when was the last time the losing party,in this case the Remainers,tried for over three years to reverse a result won by 17.4m people?

We are entering new territory here and either way it won't have an happy ending.

[Regal Beagle]

1 hour ago, Jacko51 said:

Tell me a single occasion when a political party, having lost an election, has simply accepted it and not tried to win next time.  Tell me why Farage admitted he wouldn't accept defeat and move on if the referendum vote was close. 

The answer to avoiding all this chaos would have been for the ERG and their ilk to support the PM of the day rather than make strenuous attempts to knife her in the back.

The labour party between the 2017 election and the multiple declined offers of a General election in 2019?

[Regal Beagle]

1 hour ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Interesting...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farages-shock-peerage-claim-20860581

"They offered me nothing. Oh yeah, they offered me a peerage."

Lord Farage has a beautiful ring to it although it's not as good as Sir Nige.

 

Keep up the good work Nige!

[Jacko51]

44 minutes ago, For Us All said:

I'm not saying don't try to win next time,that's a given.When was the last time somebody tried to fight to overturn an election or referendum that they had lost in the UK?

Scots Nats 2014?  

[For Us All]

36 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Scots Nats 2014?  

They honoured that result in 2014.

Even the SNP leader Alex Salmond said "I accept the verdict of the people and I call upon all Scots to follow suit in accepting the democratic verdict of the Scottish people.This is a triumph for the democratic process and for participation in politics".

I understand they they want another go at getting independence but at least they had the decency to honour the 2014 referendum first,unlike this rabble we've got.

[Andyregs]

3 hours ago, For Us All said:

Well,I dont go into any election or referendum voting to lose,do you?If I did manage to lose,which it did a couple of times in the 70's & 90's,I accepted defeat and tried to get on with my life.I didn't go round calling everybody names and demanding another vote.

We wouldn't need an election and we wouldn't have had three and a half years of dithering and delay if the losers had accepted defeat in 2016.This has never happened in my lifetime and says a lot about our politics and the times we live in.

Learn to accept defeat and move on,like we used to do.This is the only answer to avoid all this chaos.

You know it makes sense.

Never said you did. I said you’re criticising mps for not passing a brexit deal you didn’t support. You darent say if you supported the Boris deal. And now you seem to be criticising mp’s trying to make a deal and they should have just left 3 and a half years ago with no deal or preparation. You know when people say you didn’t know what you were voting for? This is why. 

[philpvfc]

19 hours ago, Gallifreyan Valiant said:

But But it would have been different had the vote not gone the way of leave ???   The fact is leave only narrowly won which gives ground for a second referendum.   Here rad what Farage says about a second referendum before the last one https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681?usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D&fbclid=IwAR3rg3LPh2uNKC4pzHYnt2NVGvnbZE-XN4Eqz3oK0sBQgIvoCrA608iffvM&amp_js_v=0.1#aoh=15732533092705&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

There was no chance there would have been another referendum had the vote gone the other way, well not for many many years. The country would have just got on with staying in the EU. I for one who have always thought we should leave the EU would not support another referendum but hoped we could have negotiated slightly better terms like keeping the rebates which are due to finish.

have you read the whole article? Farage was mainly complaining about the way the campaigning had gone by the remain side, not so much calling for another referendum. Also, Cameron is quoted a couple of times as saying there will be no chance of another referendum.

we have had a vote and that vote was to leave so therefor the politicians should agree on what is the best way to leave the EU not should we have another vote or revoke the decision to leave.