General Erection - 12th December 2019

[TheSage]

Germany hasn't done badly with PR.

 

[Fosse69]

33 minutes ago, geosname said:

PR would give us a brexit type debate every day with nothing getting done.

If people don't want far left or right politics doesn't it make sense for Labour to move closer to the middle ground.

With PR there would likely be 3 or 4 parties, the 2 centralist parties would tend to form a coalition, whereas the extremes with fewer MPs would not have as much say., Voters choose who they want and seats are allocated proportionately.  With our 2 party system each party contains extremes and centres, only the party members determine the extreme/center ratio.  

[Fosse69]

6 minutes ago, TheSage said:

Germany hasn't done badly with PR.

 

They also have a federal system with 18 states, thus allowing a high level of local control of services and taxes, as against our system of control of everything from London.

[bobvale]

1 hour ago, geosname said:

Labour were built to represent the working class and they have lost that appeal, they no longer listen to their core support. The further left they go the more people turn away from them.

Momentum chose jezza and I think they will choose the next leader to, you should look at them closely.

Boris has an opportunity to bannish Labour to the wilderness for many years, whether he takes it or not is a different matter.

momentum didn't exist until after Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the labour party so I think you may be wrong there my friend. I feel that labour were actually speaking more to the working class under Jeremy Corbyn than under previous leaders. I truely believe that there plans to devote money and effort in to new green industrys would have been great for old working class towns who now rely on people like sports direct for work. Imagine getting a large part of the people in stoke and Newcastle trained to refit houses so they were enviromentaly sound, and new factorys to make turbines and solar panels. I think that was very good for us here in north staffs but it was not to be because people were angry about Brexit in my opinion of course. I think we have missed a real opportunity sadly and the young will eventauly pay.

[Paul6754]

IMHO The voters rejected Corbyn, Socialism and identity politics rather than embrace Boris and Conservative policies.

I hold my breath for the future.

 

[Old fort]

8 hours ago, Joe B said:

The only time a Socialist platform has won an election in this country was in 1945, after two devastating World Wars and a clear need for radical public investment.

Labour have had one PM since 1979 and he is now villified and castigated by the very same Party.

Blair had innumerable flaws and has a tarnished legacy, but winning 2 commanding and 1 comfortable majority is something Labour need to learn from.

Dismissing his entire style of leadership, press operation, and political philosophy because, as the Chilcott Inquiry has said, he was far too keen to accept flawed intelligence and join the US in 2003, is absolutely ludicrous and underlines the current silliness of the Labour top table.

Iraq was an awful policy decision and Blair has, rightly, been roundly criticised for it. However, he also knew how to win elections, and improved many, many more lives than Jeremy Corbyn has ever done from the back-benchers and Opposition Front Bench.

The Iraq war served to ultimately tarnish Blars' legacy, a bit like being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Before that, he managed to create, in general, an upbeat feel to the UK, and for a number of years was just what the country needed, after the devastation of the Thatcher years, but I guess everything has its' shelf life and even many of the Labour left refered to him as Tory Blair,.  But the fact is that as long as Labour continue to regress to their deep rooted heavy left image, they will never be electable,  as history is now clearly showing. 

[Heatwave]

Boris Johnson has five years to deliver policies palatable to the great British public. If he doesn't, he will be out on his ear irrespective of how much his public image plays.

That is, provided the opposition is electable. Time will tell. 

[Jacko51]

8 hours ago, bobvale said:

 I think if labour just chose 7 or 8 of those policies and had a different leader then things may have been different.

But they didn't and they haven't and that's why they were battered in the election.  If they don't learn from that they will continue to be battered.

[bobvale]

I agree with you . I think it is important to think and learn about why they lost and also to be realsing that some people may give reasons because they want there own way. Already I read that one part of the party says it because of Corbyn and another wing says its because of Brexit. One group want a middle ground person, another group wants a lefty person. I think the leadership battle  will be like when Owen Smith tried to prove he was left wing when he tried to overthrow Corbyn, with al the people fibbing ot try and persuade the young left wing Labour members that they can be as radical and left wing as Corbyn but with no  baggage. The thing is, they will soon have baggage as the news press will invent some and repeat it and the tweet accounts will repeat it and the conservatives will repeat it and have I got news for you ect will repeat it until everybody believes it. Meanwhile planet earth burns and the homeless die and Boris Johnson laughs and gets fat and rich in number 10. It is a crying shame.

[Jacko51]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regret-we-didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

He's completely deluded I'm afraid.  He's still fighting a class war.

[bobvale]

I don't particulely like Corbyn but I struggle to disagree with very much in that article, jacko51.

[bobvale]

Off to bed now, good night all.

[geosname]

6 hours ago, bobvale said:

momentum didn't exist until after Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the labour party so I think you may be wrong there my friend. I feel that labour were actually speaking more to the working class under Jeremy Corbyn than under previous leaders. I truely believe that there plans to devote money and effort in to new green industrys would have been great for old working class towns who now rely on people like sports direct for work. Imagine getting a large part of the people in stoke and Newcastle trained to refit houses so they were enviromentaly sound, and new factorys to make turbines and solar panels. I think that was very good for us here in north staffs but it was not to be because people were angry about Brexit in my opinion of course. I think we have missed a real opportunity sadly and the young will eventauly pay.

As a registered organisation you are right they didn't.

If Labour had said they wouldn't honour the referendum  result in the previous election they would have lost then instead of now.

Labour stopped listening to it's grass roots years ago, bent itself out of shape to become what was presented to the people in this election and were hammered by the people it took for granted.

 Brexit was a big factor, not just because of leaving but because Labour ignored the decision it's supporters had made, Labour didn't listen and Labour voters reacted.... jezza was also a big factor.... Labour voters didn't trust him and they didn't like him.... the unthinkable happened.... places that had been red for decades turned blue..... that's a seismic shift not a slight wobble that can be blamed on to many policies.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Labour split wide open. 

[geosname]

"Two-and-a-half years ago, in the first general election I contested as Labour leader, our party increased its share of the popular vote by 10 percentage points."

That's because he promised to honour the result of the referendum. 

I wonder how many dissenters and remainers wished they had voted for Mays deal now?

[Aussie Rules]

2 hours ago, geosname said:

As a registered organisation you are right they didn't.

If Labour had said they wouldn't honour the referendum  result in the previous election they would have lost then instead of now.

Labour stopped listening to it's grass roots years ago, bent itself out of shape to become what was presented to the people in this election and were hammered by the people it took for granted.

 Brexit was a big factor, not just because of leaving but because Labour ignored the decision it's supporters had made, Labour didn't listen and Labour voters reacted.... jezza was also a big factor.... Labour voters didn't trust him and they didn't like him.... the unthinkable happened.... places that had been red for decades turned blue..... that's a seismic shift not a slight wobble that can be blamed on to many policies.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Labour split wide open. 

Sadly Geo, Labour has been doing a good job of splitting itself wide open post Blair, and unless it reinvents its identity to regain the political heartland it will always remain an 'also ran' in UK politics.