Match Thread - EFLT Walsall v Port Vale

[PV1973]

I think the fact that our main youth team played Sutton Coldfield in the FA Youth Cup yesterday also contributed to that. Agho hasn't played that much for the Under 18's this season so it made more sense to send him to Walsall than to Sutton Coldfield.

Playing him last night was a clever move. It generates even more interest in the player himself and it also shines a light on our academy as a whole too. Scouts watch us regularly anyway, but over recent seasons players like Turner, Gibbons, Smith and now this 15 year old all lend weight to the fact we can produce players and is even more incentive for them to come and watch us.

 

Honestly we are a selling club, if anyone comes in with good money for an academy player they will be sold. I've seen a load of players at our academy who were unbelievable, generating interest and then they dipped or got an injury and that interest was gone. Now we've seen them cash in when they can, because the reality is that theres little chance of us keeping these players when a big club comes in and shows interest. Also theres always the possibility of them not actually making the grade even because there are so many unknowns along the way, thats another factor why lower clubs will cash in when they can too.

[Howjy04]

Playing him last night was a clever move. It generates even more interest in the player himself and it also shines a light on our academy as a whole too. Scouts watch us regularly anyway, but over recent seasons players like Turner, Gibbons, Smith and now this 15 year old all lend weight to the fact we can produce players and is even more incentive for them to come and watch us.

 

Honestly we are a selling club, if anyone comes in with good money for an academy player they will be sold. I've seen a load of players at our academy who were unbelievable, generating interest and then they dipped or got an injury and that interest was gone. Now we've seen them cash in when they can, because the reality is that theres little chance of us keeping these players when a big club comes in and shows interest. Also theres always the possibility of them not actually making the grade even because there are so many unknowns along the way, thats another factor why lower clubs will cash in when they can too.

Correct,we are a selling club.Always have been,always will be.I was watching the under 10s last night.I’d give them all contracts.Unfortuneately if the big fish come calling they’re off.Such is life.

[darren1810]

Correct,we are a selling club.Always have been,always will be.I was watching the under 10s last night.I’d give them all contracts.Unfortuneately if the big fish come calling they’re off.Such is life.

 

Totally correct Howjy and a lot goes on without people knowing.

About 5 years ago i went to Bradford on the official coach and decided to pop in the Club shop before getting the coach with my lad.

To my surprise an old aquaintance of mine was in the shop who is a huge Stoke fan of 30 years plus.

Turned out his son , at the time about aged 8 was playing for Vale academy.

Anyway to cut a long story short, Stoke brought him from Vale 2 years later aged 10 and paid Vale the nominal sum of 3'000 as compensation.

 

Not for a minute saying this lad will make it but he is now about 14 and by all accounts excelling at Stoke.

Money talks, Vale have little of it so have to sell the crown jewels at whatever age.

[Howjy04]

Totally correct Howjy and a lot goes on without people knowing.

About 4 years ago i went to Bradford on the official coach and decided to pop in the Club shop before getting the coach with my lad.

To my surprise an old aquaintance of mine was in the shop who is a huge Stoke fan of 30 years plus.

Turned out his son , at the time about aged 8 was playing for Vale academy.

Anyway to cut a long story short, Stoke brought him from Vale 2 years later aged 10 and paid Vale the nominal sum of 3'000 as compensation.

 

Not for a minute saying this lad will make it but he is now about 14 and by all accounts excelling at Stoke.

Money talks, Vale have little of it so have to sell the crown jewels at whatever age.

We’re lucky to get any kids of quality.My grandson is one of the best goalies at under 10 level in junior football.Almost every local team wants to sign him.He spent 2 years at Man Utd.Their decision was he was not quite tall enough.Well,he is now and United were watching him again last Sunday.I’m waiting for the invitation.

[PV1973]

FWIW…….

 

Hornby had very little to do, but he was assured in his handling throughout the game, he couldn’t do much about the goal.

 

Monty had a varied game, first half he really struggled to get in to it in an attacking sense, defensively I thought he did well, I don’t recall him getting beaten by his winger and his work rate in recovery runs after he’d pushed on was good to see, won important headers and kept his shape well so they couldn’t play behind him. Second half he got forward a bit more and found himself in good positions at times to get the ball in. The left hand side though I feel is still a problem area in how the full back and winger link up, Monty was playing forward and losing the ball and first half we rarely saw that side link together with any purpose. Aspins comments seem to indicate that he’s lacking confidence and I think that showed at times last night. But hes a player who hasn’t played much recently, so maybe it’s just a game time issue

 

Vassell played well in his natural position, won the vast majority of his headers and when he got the ball down he tried to play when he could to keep things ticking over. I think he’s better here than at full back. Rawlinson was much the same, won a lot of his battles and defended well one on one. Both of them along with the full backs kept a really good shape and line to stop them playing through and over us.

 

Gibbons was possibly the opposite of Montano, I thought had a very good first half, put in maybe 3 or 4 excellent crosses that we were unlucky not to convert. He had a hand in the first goal with a good tackle and run down the wing. Had the better of his winger throughout, won defensive headers at the back post when he needed to, like Monty kept a good shape to stop them getting behind and through us, linked up well down the channels with Quigley and Kanu (it looked they had words a few times it about what Kanu was supposed to be doing in front of him). I would say the majority of our play was down that side. Second half he didn’t get as much joy going forward as at half time they subbed their left back and made a change which improved them in that position. He gave the ball away inside a couple of times that saw them break on to us. Still defended well one on one and put in some steaming challenges again. But I’d say despite those couple of dodgy passes it was overall a decent outing for another player who’s hardly played through injury.

 

Kay played well too, with such a small crowd you could hear him constantly organising the side. Defended well in the box, won some immense headers. He also kept the ball ticking over in front of the back 4 by keeping it simple.

 

Hardcastle was probably the better of the other 2 midfielders, got about the pitch with some energy and like Kay was trying to keep it simple finding feet, sometimes sloppy by giving it away cheaply, but many of our players do at times. Arguably should have scored when he had an open goal from 40 yards and chipped the keeper. Sometimes I get him and Conlon mixed up. But Conlon is a really tidy player I think, again we were spreading the play to the full backs instead of launching it and were finding feet in the midfield 3 as well instead of going front to back. He sent a few of their players for a hot dog when he got on the ball and was flicking it over them. He clearly tired though as the first half wore on.

 

I thought Dodds had a really good game, some of his touches and play in tight areas was just pure soccer am filth. I think it was him who put a clever reverse ball through for Pugh to score. He also put in a real shift on the left tracking back to help Monty as well. Some of his stuff didn’t come off and yes he gave it away at time, but he kept going and that kind of wok rate and attitude is good to see. Unlucky not to get a strike on goal in the first half from a low cross after the move of the game starting from the back and working down the right between 3 or 4 players.

 

Kanu was a mixed bag, first half virtually everything was through him and Gibbons. Kanu got the assist for the first with a very good ball in and his pace had them on the back foot. Sometimes he got caught out positionally when their left back pushed on, second half that showed quite a bit, but hes not a winger and I’m convinced he isn’t sure what to do in that role yet, especially in the defensive responsibilities that role brings. They also seemed to get in each others way at times, think back to Worrall last season and he seemed to know when to come inside and allow the full back to get round him or when to go on his own. Kanu doesn’t quite have that understanding yet. Sometimes he carries the ball and loses it when a pass is on, but hes a young player and those mistakes will happen. When he actually went down the wing with pace he looked a threat. It says it all though that the left back got subbed at half time and I think was due to the joy our right hand side was having down there in the first half.

 

Quigley possibly had his best game yet for us. First off he isn’t the replacement for Pope we’re looking for. He isn’t as brave as Pope and sometimes the ball doesn’t stick with him as it does with Pope, which is frustrating because that’s what we’re used to seeing week in week out up front. But he had a big hand in the game, he scored a good header from Kanus ball in, he probably should have had a second not long after from a Gibbons ball in. His work rate got the centre half sent off too. Sometimes first half he was linking well to feet and keeping the ball and I think his strength is that ball to feet or chest, not to his head because he looks like he ducks out sometimes. At times he also loses it too easily, but overall it was a decent game from him.

 

Pugh did well when he came on for Conlon, like many others showed a good attitude and work rate. In the main he kept the ball well and put himself about and was always available for the ball. Scored a good goal too.

 

Daniels didn’t really affect the game at all when he came on. Am I right in saying hes only got a deal til January?

 

Acho is getting all the limelight, the reality is that he looked like a boy playing with men, but he looked willing to put himself about and receive the ball, so I wouldn’t say he was over awed, its just that decision making that comes with experience. But it shows what he has done to get to this position.

 

In summary first half was pretty much all us, we were playing through the midfield, we were getting the ball wide, playing in the channels, we got some meaningful crosses in, scored a good goal and maybe could have had more. We restricted them to very little, they were spraying the ball left and right but just couldn’t get through us or behind us. Their goal was really against the run of play from some head tennis from a corner that fell kindly on the 6 yard box. Second half got a little more sloppy from us. Maybe that’s down to a lack of match practice for some of the players that featured who aren’t up to sharpness yet? I felt when they went down to ten men we kept the same formation for too long and as a result we were getting in to our shape and allowing them to have maybe too much of the ball in front of us, going 2 up front eventually helped. Most of our problems came from us gifting them possession. Monty did one first half when they broke 2 on 1. Gibbons did it twice second half, I didn’t see properly because of the fkn posts in the way and I had a little moan, but the guy in front of me turned around and tried to put me right by saying it looked like one of their lads got a nick on one of his passes which diverted the ball in to their strikers path. Fair enough, but even so its funny listening to some of the abuse dished out to our own players when something happens, incidents that spring to mind were Monty miscontrolling by their corner flag first half, Vassell slipping over when playing a pass, Quigley and Dodds doing the same from throws down by us second half, Gibbons playing a bad ball inside, Monty playing a bad ball inside, players being shouted at to run after the ball to close the opposition down, players being told to hoof it, defenders and midfielders being moaned at for keeping the ball by going backwards or sideways. I’m sure there were more times than those but honestly its like some people show a real lack of understanding at times and go completely over the top. Its so disproportionate and football is an easy game for people to be negative about, but I thought there were plenty of positive signs from the majority of the players in that game, (Hornby, the back 4, Kay, Pugh, Dodds, Quigley especially), much more so than some of the negative incidents that happened.

[JRC]

Playing him last night was a clever move. It generates even more interest in the player himself and it also shines a light on our academy as a whole too. Scouts watch us regularly anyway, but over recent seasons players like Turner, Gibbons, Smith and now this 15 year old all lend weight to the fact we can produce players and is even more incentive for them to come and watch us.

 

Honestly we are a selling club, if anyone comes in with good money for an academy player they will be sold. I've seen a load of players at our academy who were unbelievable, generating interest and then they dipped or got an injury and that interest was gone. Now we've seen them cash in when they can, because the reality is that theres little chance of us keeping these players when a big club comes in and shows interest. Also theres always the possibility of them not actually making the grade even because there are so many unknowns along the way, thats another factor why lower clubs will cash in when they can too.

 

You don't sell under 16 players there is a compensation formula in place if they decide to move to another club. They sign a contract for 2 years at a time, if they move during the contract there is a higher compensation fee than movement at the end of a contract before it is renewed. In this case I think they are trying to keep him by showing he will get a chance of first team football here than somewhere else. As a club we have no say in where the player goes and what we receive, that's down to the boy and parents.

[CambridgeDon]

Thanks for a very informative post - for a minute I forgot I was reading it and thought I was at the game! Sounds like we could do with some of the same patterns of play (playing it through the midfield, down the flanks with the midfield and fullbacks working together, and playing to feet) in the first team. Encouraging signs that we’re beginning to develop some strength in depth.

[CambridgeDon]

If Norman gets anything like an offer for Agho, unreasonable or not, he’ll take it. The sooner he is gone the better. Myopic to a fault. 😡

[PV1973]

You don't sell under 16 players there is a compensation formula in place if they decide to move to another club. They sign a contract for 2 years at a time, if they move during the contract there is a higher compensation fee than movement at the end of a contract before it is renewed. In this case I think they are trying to keep him by showing he will get a chance of first team football here than somewhere else. As a club we have no say in where the player goes and what we receive, that's down to the boy and parents.

You're splitting hairs a bit, you know what I mean. We will let players go at a young age from the academy because it brings us money. They can be offered any length of contract the club want, usually 6 months to a year in the main. But when you sign with an academy the club then hold the players registration, they can choose not to release that registration if they don't want to. Of course that may be silly if a big club comes in and offers a fee. I know that Crewe did that with a lad quite recently, he actually wanted to leave as he'd had enough there. The club wouldn't release the registration so he couldn't go and sign for any other club.

 

They get the 2 year scholarship contract at the end of the u16s season when they leave school. The club can offer him one early if they wanted to. We could even offer him a pro contract now if we wanted to. I have no idea if we have or not, we'd be daft not to at least have signed him up to a 2 year scholarhip deal once he leaves school. But if hes signed that scolarship then that should give us more of a fee if another club comes in for him because in essence hes under contract.

 

He'll go, I'm sure of it, and Tuesday was a step in securing that IMO.

[Wrex]

I don't mind these youngsters being sold on before they can establish themselves in the first team... providing the money actually goes back into the club. A wunderkid at 15 can end up being not even EFL quality by age 20. Take a look at the previous record youngest Port Vale player for proof of that. Made his debut at age 15 and was released and his career over at age 18!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_MacKenzie_(footballer)

[rsb]

This sounds like slave labour make a line then someone walks up and down how much do you want for this one and goes to the highest bidder.

[PV1973]

This sounds like slave labour make a line then someone walks up and down how much do you want for this one and goes to the highest bidder.

The ball is firmly in the clubs court with young players, especially the bigger clubs.

[JRC]

You're splitting hairs a bit, you know what I mean. We will let players go at a young age from the academy because it brings us money. They can be offered any length of contract the club want, usually 6 months to a year in the main. But when you sign with an academy the club then hold the players registration, they can choose not to release that registration if they don't want to. Of course that may be silly if a big club comes in and offers a fee. I know that Crewe did that with a lad quite recently, he actually wanted to leave as he'd had enough there. The club wouldn't release the registration so he couldn't go and sign for any other club.

 

They get the 2 year scholarship contract at the end of the u16s season when they leave school. The club can offer him one early if they wanted to. We could even offer him a pro contract now if we wanted to. I have no idea if we have or not, we'd be daft not to at least have signed him up to a 2 year scholarhip deal once he leaves school. But if hes signed that scolarship then that should give us more of a fee if another club comes in for him because in essence hes under contract.

 

He'll go, I'm sure of it, and Tuesday was a step in securing that IMO.

 

They can't choose to hold the registration. The club which signs them either agrees a fee or just has to pay the fixed rate under the compensation scheme. Up to 11 it is a fixed rate of 3000, thereafter it's 12500 for every year the player has been with the club as we are a category 3 Accadamy. We can't stop a child signing for any club provided the pay the fixed compensation. The controversy is over category 1 academies holding out for the full 40000 per year for players who wish to move because clubs like us can't afford to pay that sort of money for a 15 year old.

 

https://www.google.com.kw/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/12/21/youth-players-left-scrapheap-thanks-exorbitant-compensation/amp/

[PV1973]

https://www.google.com.kw/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/12/21/youth-players-left-scrapheap-thanks-exorbitant-compensation/amp/

Some of those examples are a nightmare, which is exactly what Crewe did with a friend of mines son and he'd signed for 2 years too. So he couldn't do anything in that time other than Sunday football because no one would pay for him, killed his career really.

[JRC]

Some of those examples are a nightmare, which is exactly what Crewe did with a friend of mines son and he'd signed for 2 years too. So he couldn't do anything in that time other than Sunday football because no one would pay for him, killed his career really.

 

It's a conundrum because if clubs don't get compensation they won't invest. The irony is the bigger clubs have category one status and get the largest compensation. Maybe 12500 a year should apply to all clubs. 50000 for Agho is an insignificant sum to Man City if they really want him at 16. By and large category 3 clubs aren't going to pay transport costs for youngsters from out of their area to attend training so Walsall would be unlikely to take players from Vale or Crewe. I suppose the other option would be to progressively reduce the number of players a club can register through the age groups, so young players get released from the bigger clubs and get a chance to try somewhere else.