Promotion from Non-League to Football League

[darren1810]

This may well have been touched on before but i thought i'd make a comment.

I'm relatively old school ( 51 ) and harp on about the good old days as we do. I know 2 promotion spots have been available for ages , probably over 10 years, i would like it reduced back to 1.

What prompted my post was that Morecambe took 18 fans to Newport last night. Complete and utter joke in my opinion.

The Football League has been diluted with ( my opinion ) tin pot teams like Morecambe, Yeovil, FGR, Crawley, Stevenage.

 

Wrexham must of been down for a decade, Tranmere are struggling to get back, Leyton Orient another side plummeting.

Stockport are in oblivion in National League North.

 

Whilst not wanting to stop the dreams of clubs and their rightful chance to progress up the pyramid i feel the League is being diluted for the worse.

None of these teams have really progressed crowd wise. It isn't like a big success story where they have sustained bigger gates, i might be wrong but i'm sure Morecambe had less than 1000 against Crewe this season.

 

When i attend a home game against some of these teams it is pretty much a mundane game with no atmosphere due to no away support.

 

You could argue Tranmere and Wrexham etc are where they are due to their own downfall but i feel either the Champions go up automatic and the winner of the play offs maybe has a 'winner takes all ' game versus 23rd in the Football League.

 

Newport are proof that you can have one horrific season and then re-group, not sure that they'd be 7th in the Conference had they gone down.

 

Also it isn't doing my grounds total any good when we lose clubs !!!

 

Ps i would also throw Fleetwood and Accrington into my list of tin pot.

 

Alfreton took more to Blyth Spartans than Morecambe took to Newport.

 

Wrexham v Tranmere, already 7200 tickets sold in advance for this coming weekend.

[smithie]

I remember Torquay bringing 2 fans back in the early 80's.

 

I take your point, but then I also think it's mad that the seventh-best team can go up through the playoffs in Divisions 3 & 4.

[RailwayRowdy]

Hmm. For me this a tricky one. Although not promoted to the Football League automatically, Wimbledon and Wigan have gone on to play in the top flight and indeed win the once coveted FA Cup. We all enjoy smaller teams putting one over on their more heralded counterparts (like Burnley this season). I feel that if a club has ambition and the financial backing they should at least have the opportunity to progress, after all that is the whole idea of the pyramid system. One thing I will say for the likes of Fleetwood, Accy etc. they tend to be well run clubs, a trait that a few established league sides would do well to follow.

[robf]

Sorry, I don't agree. If we start loading the tables based on club size and support it takes away any competitive element.

 

Surely a club of Vale's size should appreciate that it isn't down to history and level of support, it's down to what you do on the pitch - for me that's the Rudge era in a nutshell. Despite being the "second" club in Stoke-on-Trent we consistently punched above our weight against "bigger" clubs like Wolves, WBA, Stoke etc.

 

For me the great thing about the Football League is the sheer diversity. In this league alone you've got Coventry and Crawley, you've got the oldest club in Notts County and the youngest in Forest Green.

 

I am sorry for the plight of Tranmere and especially Leyton Orient but they are where they are for a reason - that is poor managerial appointments by poor owners.

 

I just think your poor away day experiences only make the good away days more enjoyable when they do come around

[londonvale]

The thing is that whilst thrse clubs are not the biggest they have succeeded and denying them promotion would be like vale being denied a spot in championship because say...Birmingham take more away.I agree some of these clubs seem soul less but proves they are run better than wrexham,tranmere,york etc..clubs like Burton and AFC Wimbledon are why promotion is good and I think 3 up 3 down would be better...

[jjvale_03]

This may well have been touched on before but i thought i'd make a comment.

I'm relatively old school ( 51 ) and harp on about the good old days as we do. I know 2 promotion spots have been available for ages , probably over 10 years, i would like it reduced back to 1.

What prompted my post was that Morecambe took 18 fans to Newport last night. Complete and utter joke in my opinion.

The Football League has been diluted with ( my opinion ) tin pot teams like Morecambe, Yeovil, FGR, Crawley, Stevenage.

 

Wrexham must of been down for a decade, Tranmere are struggling to get back, Leyton Orient another side plummeting.

Stockport are in oblivion in National League North.

 

Whilst not wanting to stop the dreams of clubs and their rightful chance to progress up the pyramid i feel the League is being diluted for the worse.

None of these teams have really progressed crowd wise. It isn't like a big success story where they have sustained bigger gates, i might be wrong but i'm sure Morecambe had less than 1000 against Crewe this season.

 

When i attend a home game against some of these teams it is pretty much a mundane game with no atmosphere due to no away support.

 

You could argue Tranmere and Wrexham etc are where they are due to their own downfall but i feel either the Champions go up automatic and the winner of the play offs maybe has a 'winner takes all ' game versus 23rd in the Football League.

 

Newport are proof that you can have one horrific season and then re-group, not sure that they'd be 7th in the Conference had they gone down.

 

Also it isn't doing my grounds total any good when we lose clubs !!!

 

Ps i would also throw Fleetwood and Accrington into my list of tin pot.

 

Alfreton took more to Blyth Spartans than Morecambe took to Newport.

 

Wrexham v Tranmere, already 7200 tickets sold in advance for this coming weekend.

 

I think the bigger issue is that it seems you can spend whatever you want to bankroll a club through the non-league pyramid and into the FL. We could well be playing AFC Fylde next season and Salford City the next. The likes of Eastleigh, Billericay and Brackley are all on an ego (and money) driven mission to the FL. For fans of historic clubs like ours, it's not much fun coming up against these 'new money' teams, instead of the likes of Wrexham, Tranmere and Stockport.

 

I disagree with Rob's comments about Vale in the 90's punching above our weight. The difference is that we did it the right way, we certainly didn't spend our way to those achievements. This is far different to the likes of FGR and Fleetwood who would be nowhere near the level they're at without being bankrolled. This is what irks fans in the FL.

 

Burton Albion and FGR are two examples of the opposite ways of doing things - the good way (Burton) and the other way (FGR).

[darren1810]

End of the day i guess no right or wrong. I did put in my post that teams have a rightful chance to come up. Just seems to me some of these teams are a non-entity and have not attracted any fan base as such.

As JJVale rightly says the probable next 2 clubs to be in the Football League within 5 years will be Fylde and Salford.

I just think a fairer way would be to give the team in 23rd another chance maybe in a play-off game to save their bacon.

No team has a divine right to anything or be in any particular division without merit but i do feel it is becoming diluted

[man in the pub]

I suppose there is a danger of restricting relegation/promotion. I am sure in the American NFL nothing ever changes , no promotion or relegation. A few years back I heard it was an idea being kicked around for the Premier league. On attendances and history should we ever have been allowed in the Championship when we got there by merit under the great Sir John Rudge.

I know its strange looking at the Conference and seeing it stuffed with teams we used to play but its evolution. If a Billionaire took us over and in 5 years time we were top of the Premier how many of us would complain ? Yet plenty of Premier and Championship teams would so does that mean it shouldn't be allowed ?

I have a mate who supports Tranmere and another who is still a Stockport season ticket holder despite all their woes so I do feel their pain, but that's life.

[gavcradd]

If you go down this route, the other side of the coin is that we would be blocked from promotion to the Championship or Premiership. Promotion and relegation should be purely based on performance on the pitch, I don't give a monkeys if Morcambe v FGR eventually ends up being a Premiership game, if that's where they deserve to be.

[TJHValiant]

I think calling Yeovil and Stevenage tin pot is a bit rich given that Yeovil have been in the championship in the past 5 years and Stevenage have had some notable giant killings and have been in the league 1 play offs...while us....

 

Sadly Tranmere, Orient etc fell into serious decline and warrant conference places. Barnet got relegated after seemingly losing their ground and identity yet came back.

 

I don’t think cutting the number of clubs will solve the problem. The reality is a lot of these new clubs are in more affluent areas and you could say that the rise of Bournemouth, traditionally a division 4 club, Swansea, Wigan, etc in recent years has pushed back the clubs like us that relied on big working class support.

[TJHValiant]

I also don’t believe the Championship is this club punching above its weight.

 

We are a club with the most seasons of 2nd tier football never to have been promoted to the top tier.

 

Also in terms of statistics, since formed this club has had more seasons in the 2nd tier of football than any other level.

 

3rd tier is close behind and only about 12 it so seasons in the 4th tier.

[Essex Vale]

Promotion must be allowed on merit, and there can be no argument that the bottom two teams are relegated. The progress that has been made since automatic promotion and relegation was introduced in phenomenal. There is now a clear 5th level. Every non-league team can dream and have a route to glory mapped out in front of them. If the number of supporters you have were a criteria then we ought to fold and allow Stoke-in-Trent to have only one team. Of course, hell will freeze over before we allow that to happen!

 

The number of supporters a team has is irrelevant, although there is a correlation in that the more successful a team is the more they will attract, and the bigger their income. However, football is a game for the working man and woman, it is about daring to dream, killing the giants, seizing the moment, creating your identity, enjoying the visit to new grounds, and fighting like hell to keep what you have and no drop down the pyramid any further.

 

Without any of these things it is then a souless pastime for the prawn sandwich brigade.

[jk77]

How the hell can we call other clubs tin pot.

Non League clubs are better run than us.

The facilities especially in the Paddock are tin pot. This day and age, if you want a drink at half time and its pis sing down,we shouldn't be getting wet because theirs no bloody roof on by the kiosks.

We've been waiting years to get the Lorne Street finished.

Some of the seats at the Vale are truly disgusting, covered in bird sh it.

Most football clubs would call us tin pot.

[osprey]

I think calling Yeovil and Stevenage tin pot is a bit rich given that Yeovil have been in the championship in the past 5 years and Stevenage have had some notable giant killings and have been in the league 1 play offs...while us....

 

Sadly Tranmere, Orient etc fell into serious decline and warrant conference places. Barnet got relegated after seemingly losing their ground and identity yet came back.

 

I don’t think cutting the number of clubs will solve the problem. The reality is a lot of these new clubs are in more affluent areas and you could say that the rise of Bournemouth, traditionally a division 4 club, Swansea, Wigan, etc in recent years has pushed back the clubs like us that relied on big working class support.

 

You mention Bournemouth - the one thing that really grates about them getting to the Premier League is that they were fined in their first season there ( 7 million i think ) for breaking the fair play rules. Of course being in the Premier League then they could afford it, personally I think its a bit of a mockery of those rules and they should have been automatically relegated.

[Shropshire_Valiant]

I partly agree with the op. The away followings/fanbase of certain teams are bug bare of mine too. IMO teams like Morecambe, Crawley to name but two simply don't deserve league football based on their gates. It makes me cringe when you see the away end at Vale with sub 100 fans in it when teams like Wrexham and Tranmere for all their faults and they aren't massive clubs(I'd put them similar to ourselves in a lot of ways) would bring at least 500 to Vale Park even on a Tuesday night/even if they weren't playing well. I'm sure Tranmere and Wrexham would say similar about Vale in terms of what we'd take to them

 

However before anyone shoots me down Rob is right as well football isn't just based on the size of a club, teams are where they are on merit. I look at Stockport and York in the conference north and whilst something must have gone badly wrong at both those teams(on and off the pitch) and I feel sorry for their genuine supporters they are in the 6th tier for a reason so as a club it's their own fault.

As much as I don't particularly like Forest Green for example, you can only say fair play to them, they have clearly been better run than Leyton Orient have over the last few years to use an ex league side as an example the other way.

And of course you can't restrict the football league to say 100 odd potential teams based on their fanbase. Lets say for example if a side can't average gates of at least 2000 at home they won't be allowed above the National League, then you could also say if you can't average 3000+ you won't be allowed above League Two! Where do you stop! Too a point it would be boring if it was the same 92 clubs every year. I can't say I agree on the having 1 up and down point either as I think 2 actually gives the likes of Wrexham and Tranmere a better chance to bounce back as opposed to just 1 place(obviously).

I'm actually quite proud we have the system we do have in the English football league which does gives teams the chance to progress from non-league to the Premier(ok that's not likely with many but it could happen and did with the old Wimbledon, I believe Northampton once went from the 4th to the 1st in a short space of time too? and look at Bournemouth at the moment spent most of their history in the 3rd and 4th tier until recently!)

 

One thing I will say though imo there is too much of bankrolling of clubs that goes on. Forest Green and Fleetwood are examples whilst they are where they are on merit of what they've achieved on the pitch it's clearly only been achieved because someone has spent millions of pounds on them. AFC Fylde will probably be the next one and I believe Billericay down south are being bankrolled pretty heavily to do well. Whilst if someone is a millionnaire and wants to help their local side that's fair enough but if your local club averages 500 fans(probably a lot less in some cases) you can't just suddenly magic a fanbase of a couple of thousand out of thin air. OK to an extent people will pay to watch a successful winning side if you shoot up a few divisions, but you only have to look at these teams away followings to show how many people really support them through thick and thin!