Grammar schools

[PVFC764]

Sorry. Any school in Lincolnshire are offered the chance for their pupils to take the 11+ and if the kids pass they are offered a place if available. Not aware of any of our daughters friends coming from a private school, but would not be surprised if there were a few at the school.

 

When friends found out that our daughter went to a Grammar school, they thought it was for posh rich kids only, till we said no - not at this school. Yes they work them very hard and expect results and that is about it - they don't care what the background of the family and kids are.

 

But could see why people think that, when we have attend events at the school. Some of the parents fit that thought in the way they are dressed and act. But it is mainly down to earth families at the school.

 

The one thing we have noticed is that the teachers are probably better qualified and their interviews would have been hard to pass, but again they are very down to earth when we have spoken to them at parent evenings.

[Mario]

The problem as I see it is this.....The teachers pitch the lessons to the middle ability, the brighter ones are expected to get on with it,the slower ones and the ones who who mess about are ignored.

 

It should be a race to the top,the top public schools work for longer hours with students who are ambitious and are determined to work hard, unfortunately comprehensive schools are littered with students who don't want to work and resent the fact they are there in the first place.

[PVFC764]

That why we were over the moon our daughter had got in. It was her choice if she went there or went to the other schools.

 

School in the village, we joked that they checked the pupils for weapons on the way in and if they didn't have one, they give them one. Went from a cracking school to a school needing improvement and is now an academy, but still needs to improve.

 

At a recent 6th form school open evening (attached to the Grammar), kids from all around attended and you could hear parents and kids saying this is not the school for you etc. When the head teacher said what they expected from the pupils and how much work they would have to do, kids were saying I don't want to do that much work, I want to go to college then and have an easier time at school.

[Paul6754]

Quote from the link, "A new green paper is set to propose opening new grammar schools and allowing further selection by faith", I'm totally opposed to any selection by faith in the UK and would prefer religion not to be taught in schools at all. If it must be taught then it must include all religions as well as Darwin's theory of evolution to give much needed balance.

 

I was shocked to learn recently that my old school, Clough Hall Comprehensive School in Kidsgrove which became Clough Hall Technology School has recently been "rebranded" The King's Church of England School.

 

It beggars belief that in 21st century Britain segregation based on religion is still alive, kicking and being actively promoted in schools, the people responsible should hold their heads in shame.

[TheSage]

Three points.

 

The real problem in education is that the government (no governments) hasn't adequately funded the education system so that it caters for all levels of ability. Tinkering with the structure won't have a massive impact on the majority. Only a select few can go to a grammar school (it used to be 20%) so what happens to the 80% who are left, when the brightest have been creamed off? We are told that parents like grammars but only if their children go there and not if they are stuck in a second class secondary modern with the 80% less able pupils.

 

It's down to resources and money. Why do wealthy parents send their children to private schools that can cost over 30k a year for each pupil? It's because they get smaller classes, their kids don't have to mix with less motivated pupils, and they get resources galore. If state schools had the same facilities, resources, pupil-teacher ratio and conditions they would achieve better results too.

 

We have never properly invested in technical and vocational education since the War. Bright academic kids have had a better deal than kids who are technically and practically gifted as we have never given them the tools they need to progress and learn. It's cheap to give a grammar school teacher 30 well-behaved kids and a piece of chalk but several times more expensive to provide practical education to the rest. Lathes, workshops, technical drawing rooms, salons, plumbing and bricklaying facilities are a lot more expensive so we have never adequately funded it. It's a crying shame and has been for the past 50 years.

 

We should be investing a lot more in education. It's the country's future and of vital importance but if it's done on the cheap we'll continue to struggle. All children deserve the best and they only get one shot in life, so this obsession with the 20% of grammar school pupils, is, I think misguided and wrong.

[Fosse69]

Apparently £50M has been set aside against an Education budget of £8000M, so cant see much change for a long time. The House of Lords can stop it any case as it is not in a manifesto. (Salisbury convention)

[For Us All]

Three points.

 

The real problem in education is that the government (no governments) hasn't adequately funded the education system so that it caters for all levels of ability. Tinkering with the structure won't have a massive impact on the majority. Only a select few can go to a grammar school (it used to be 20%) so what happens to the 80% who are left, when the brightest have been creamed off? We are told that parents like grammars but only if their children go there and not if they are stuck in a second class secondary modern with the 80% less able pupils.

 

It's down to resources and money. Why do wealthy parents send their children to private schools that can cost over 30k a year for each pupil? It's because they get smaller classes, their kids don't have to mix with less motivated pupils, and they get resources galore. If state schools had the same facilities, resources, pupil-teacher ratio and conditions they would achieve better results too.

 

We have never properly invested in technical and vocational education since the War. Bright academic kids have had a better deal than kids who are technically and practically gifted as we have never given them the tools they need to progress and learn. It's cheap to give a grammar school teacher 30 well-behaved kids and a piece of chalk but several times more expensive to provide practical education to the rest. Lathes, workshops, technical drawing rooms, salons, plumbing and bricklaying facilities are a lot more expensive so we have never adequately funded it. It's a crying shame and has been for the past 50 years.

 

We should be investing a lot more in education. It's the country's future and of vital importance but if it's done on the cheap we'll continue to struggle. All children deserve the best and they only get one shot in life, so this obsession with the 20% of grammar school pupils, is, I think misguided and wrong.

 

So where does this extra money come from to fund this?

There's never enough money going into education like there's never enough money going into the NHS.No matter how much you put in it will get absorbed,they are both bottomless pits.

[TheSage]

I'm not a politician. I'm simply explaining to you what I think is wrong with our education system and what we might do to improve it for everyone. If education is important it should be given more of a priority.

[For Us All]

I'm not a politician. I'm simply explaining to you what I think is wrong with our education system and what we might do to improve it for everyone. If education is important it should be given more of a priority.

 

Easier said than done though.

[Essex Vale]

This is an interesting thread. I went to Stanfield, a Technical High School that turned itself into a grammar. At the time I hated it, and apart from one or two, I thought the teachers just wanted an easy life with no challenges. However later in life I realised that many of the lessons taught there did actually stick and they have helped me in later life. S/o perhaps my school boy memories are not so accurate after all.

 

The fact that some kids failed the 11 plus yet still went on to do very well is an indication that the grammar system, supported by good schools for those kids on a different stream at that age, was probably not so bad.

 

We should not go back to how grammar schools as they were but how they need to be today. Similarly, we need to improve comprehensive schools.

 

If more grammar schools raise standards then we should go with it.

 

It is preposterous to ban grammar schools as Labour did. That would be the same Labour party led by privately educated champagne socialists like Blair, Harman et al.

 

I think we should see how this plan develops.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

Is there anything wrong with ensuring that the brightest and most able get the education that makes the most of their abilities? no

 

is there anything wrong with the less bright and less able being dumped in schools that don't allow them to make the most of their abilities? yes

 

The old system had a reputation for those that did not go to grammar schools being dumped in secondary modern schools where they were pretty much just serving their time in the education system until they went into factories, shops and so on..'factory fodder' was the term often used. Obviously it was never that simple, never that black and white.

 

We need to try to ensure that everyone achieves their full potential in school and selection by ability has a part to play in that.

[Fosse69]

Is there anything wrong with ensuring that the brightest and most able get the education that makes the most of their abilities? no

 

is there anything wrong with the less bright and less able being dumped in schools that don't allow them to make the most of their abilities? yes

 

The old system had a reputation for those that did not go to grammar schools being dumped in secondary modern schools where they were pretty much just serving their time in the education system until they went into factories, shops and so on..'factory fodder' was the term often used. Obviously it was never that simple, never that black and white.

 

We need to try to ensure that everyone achieves their full potential in school and selection by ability has a part to play in that.

It was a grading system for blue collar, white collar, and the rulers, by whichever school you went, i.e. secondary modern, grammar, and public. Obviously some people didn't know their place and exceed expectations.

[valeite]

After passing the 11+ at Knypersley, I went to Biddulph Grammar. we were the last U6th at the Grammar School before the appearance of Biddulph High School.

The negative was that I was amazed at the pass list.. there were some very bright kids who failed and some really low ability kids who passed. It didn't seem to me that a single test (which is what the 11+ was then) was a fair test. I am unsure whether in the late sixties there was any appeal route that parents could have taken advantage of.

On the positive side, the Grammar School definitely benefitted high flyers (we had a fair number of Oxbridge candidates) and those kids who wanted to learn. Wealth was/is not a factor. With the right home environment, all kids have the same opportunity.

I was never a high flyer but always brought up to be respectful at school and ready (if not keen) to learn. I was lucky, the technical staff at the school were good quality; I learned and benefitted a lot (hence I am an Engineer).

The biggest problem IMHO with education these days is parenting. Children should be presented at school, every day, ready and prepared to learn, respectful of the teachers and appreciative of the opportunities offered. My wife was a teacher and from what I saw that applied to less than 50% of the kids.

At least at Grammar School there was an environment where learning was the objective and teachers were able to concentrate on teaching rather than just keeping the peace.

[valeite]

It was a grading system for blue collar, white collar, and the rulers, by whichever school you went, i.e. secondary modern, grammar, and public. Obviously some people didn't know their place and exceed expectations.

 

Don't agree. They don't come much more blue collar than my family and the families of my mates who also got to the Grammar School. The big difference was that we were well brought up well and ready to learn. I will always be grateful to my parents ("immigrant" welsh mining family from Park Lane Estate) for that preparation and support, for which they sacrificed a lot. Call it exceeding expectations if you like, but I call it fulfilling potential.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

It was a grading system for blue collar, white collar, and the rulers, by whichever school you went, i.e. secondary modern, grammar, and public. Obviously some people didn't know their place and exceed expectations.

 

You don't get much more blue collar than we were but my bro went to grammar school, became a teacher and is now a doctor of education. it was the making of him.