Grammar schools

[Fosse69]

Don't agree. They don't come much more blue collar than my family and the families of my mates who also got to the Grammar School. The big difference was that we were well brought up well and ready to learn. I will always be grateful to my parents ("immigrant" welsh mining family from Park Lane Estate) for that preparation and support, for which they sacrificed a lot. Call it exceeding expectations if you like, but I call it fulfilling potential.

Why not? You were in the category "Some people didn't know their place and exceeded expectations". Everyone should have the chance for a good education to suit their needs, and the employment opportunities available, which requires different types of schools not just grammar and secondary modern as in the 60s.

[Fosse69]

You don't get much more blue collar than we were but my bro went to grammar school, became a teacher and is now a doctor of education. it was the making of him.

As I was, but my point was not very well made, it was the output of the school that defined which job you went into. Obviously there were exceptions.

[paddock pinkle]

My brother failed his 11+ but retook it via the 13+ and ended up moving from a Secondary Modern School to a Technical School. He became a metalwork/woodwork teacher then packed it in and moved gradually into his own business making bike frames. He now runs classes for those who want to build their own frame and charges them a fortune for doing it! This is him: http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/

 

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Jacko,

 

Its a small world, my friend has got two of his bikes, absolutely loves them. They're very well made! You wouldn't be too happy though as he's a massive Sunderland fan and has them both in Red and White.

[TheSage]

I think the institute of fiscal studies summed it up well today when they concluded that those 20% who go to a grammar school do marginally better than in a comprehensive but not by much, but the overwhelming majority of children (4 in every five) do better in a comprehensive.

 

The best way to improve education for all is to improve comprehensives and give them the resources they need to match independent fee paying schools. But I doubt it is going to happen.

[Paul6754]

I lived on a council estate in Kidsgrove and my family were working class and not academic in the slightest. Kidsgrove was one of the first areas in the UK to go Comprehensive in the early/mid 60's, I went to Clough Hall Comprehensive which was a secondary modern school that turned comprehensive 1-2 years previously. All the kids in the year at Reginald Mitchell CP School went apart from one girl who's parents were teachers and she went to The Orme Girls Grammar.

 

In the 60's/early 70's Clough Hall Comp. was a poor school. The attitudes of the teachers were still very much those of a seconday modern, good teachers didn't stay very long, we had substitute teachers for one, two and and three terms in a row at 'O' and 'A' level, it was an absolute farce at times. The vibe amongst the pupils was to knock anyone down who excelled at anything apart from playing football or cricket.

 

There were some excellent teachers who were worth their weight in gold, luckily for me two taught Chemistry and Physics while they were at the school. I was the only kid from an intake of ca 220 who got to University, many bright kids just got lost or fell by the wayside.

 

However, Comprehensive schools have improved tremendously since the 60/70's and there are now some excellent Comprehensive Schools that I know of, eg The Fernwod School and The West Bridgford School in Nottingham and I lean towards "Comprehensive Schools" as the way forward but with streamed classes based on ability. However I do perceive that kids in the old grammar system received an education as good as any private school and there is no doubt many kids in my era paid the price and didn't fulfill their potential for the social experiment called Comprehensive Education.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I've no complaints about the comp I went to (Ball Green) other than there were too many kids who didn't want to learn and just wanted to be disruptive..you know who you are

[Bea Smith]

This could have been an interesting thread but it is full of anecdotes and personal experiences, which are held up as reasons for this or that, when they could just as easily be exceptions to a rule.

It's a pity some posters don't realise they, their brothers, cousins and close friends are not the necessarily most interesting people in the universe.

[Fosse69]

This could have been an interesting thread but it is full of anecdotes and personal experiences, which are held up as reasons for this or that, when they could just as easily be exceptions to a rule.

It's a pity some posters don't realise they, their brothers, cousins and close friends are not the necessarily most interesting people in the universe.

I thought that was the point of the thread going by the opening post. There are plenty of stats about comparing the performances of comps and grammars, whether there is much on the performance of the other types of schools now available I do not know. Maybe the basis of a separate thread if anyone cares to open one?

[For Us All]

This could have been an interesting thread but it is full of anecdotes and personal experiences, which are held up as reasons for this or that, when they could just as easily be exceptions to a rule.

It's a pity some posters don't realise they, their brothers, cousins and close friends are not the necessarily most interesting people in the universe.

 

The clue is in the first sentence of the opening post which ends with a question mark.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I thought that was the point of the thread going by the opening post. There are plenty of stats about comparing the performances of comps and grammars, whether there is much on the performance of the other types of schools now available I do not know. Maybe the basis of a separate thread if anyone cares to open one?

 

Indeed....the thread was opened for people to share their relevant experiences as well as discuss the merits (or otherwise) of grammar schools and selective education in general.

 

So far it's a very interesting thread...the direct (or indeed indirect) experiences are an insight into how this affects people which is always more interesting to me than numbers...real human stories that lie behind the numbers.

 

Anyway..keep the experiences coming pls

[Warren]

My brother failed his 11+ but retook it via the 13+ and ended up moving from a Secondary Modern School to a Technical School. He became a metalwork/woodwork teacher then packed it in and moved gradually into his own business making bike frames. He now runs classes for those who want to build their own frame and charges them a fortune for doing it! This is him: http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/

 

I was fortunate enough to pass the 11+ and go to the local grammar school. Both of us came from very working class backgrounds - my Mam didn't work 9not may did in those days!) and Dad was a painter in the shipyards on the Tyne.

 

I spent my career teaching in a comprehensive school. In my experience, a good comprehensive is the best deal for kids of all abilities.

 

I live in a selective area. The only chance to transfer to a grammar school - or six form college - comes at age 16. It would require special arrangements to do anything else including promotion / relegation of kids or creating additional capacity from say 13 onwards etc.

 

I feel lucky. I got over this set back because I worked and my qualifications - not intelligence - put me in the top few percent of the population. With my son who failed his 11 plus - and we did not push him to pass because I see kids pushed to get to grammar blow up when they can't keep up - is now doing a medical degree and will be a doctor in a couple of years. He already has a degree in radiography and practicised as such.

 

But he would probably have been good enough to do the medical degree aged 18 if he had been at a better school. So the 11 plus is doing many adverse things. It is shutting out kids from achieving what they could if all went to good schools. It is wasting resources in the case of my son - difficult to quantify but significant - as he would have done what he is doing now from 18. Etc.

 

I was listening to BBC R4 and kids talking about preparing for the 11 plus. They were being coached in the 6c's (last one is check etc) and obviously from good school good parent backgrounds. Expect them to pass and kids from far worse schools and parental backgrounds to fail. That is not meritocrity. But supposing one of these kids who has worked does fail having attached so much importance to passing. Aged 11 that kid will be destroyed and it will take years if not a lifetime to recover confidence. It is straight forward wrong and as a member of the Conservative Party that is what I will respond with to the green paper. To be fair May is following a proper consultation process - green, white, Bill etc.

[Warren]

My brother failed his 11+ but retook it via the 13+ and ended up moving from a Secondary Modern School to a Technical School. He became a metalwork/woodwork teacher then packed it in and moved gradually into his own business making bike frames. He now runs classes for those who want to build their own frame and charges them a fortune for doing it! This is him: http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/

 

I was fortunate enough to pass the 11+ and go to the local grammar school. Both of us came from very working class backgrounds - my Mam didn't work 9not may did in those days!) and Dad was a painter in the shipyards on the Tyne.

 

I spent my career teaching in a comprehensive school. In my experience, a good comprehensive is the best deal for kids of all abilities.

 

I live in a selective area. The only chance to transfer to a grammar school - or six form college - comes at age 16. It would require special arrangements to do anything else including promotion / relegation of kids or creating additional capacity from say 13 onwards etc.

 

I feel lucky. I got over this set back because I worked and my qualifications - not intelligence - put me in the top few percent of the population. With my son who failed his 11 plus - and we did not push him to pass because I see kids pushed to get to grammar blow up when they can't keep up - is now doing a medical degree and will be a doctor in a couple of years. He already has a degree in radiography and practicised as such.

 

But he would probably have been good enough to do the medical degree aged 18 if he had been at a better school. So the 11 plus is doing many adverse things. It is shutting out kids from achieving what they could if all went to good schools. It is wasting resources in the case of my son - difficult to quantify but significant - as he would have done what he is doing now from 18. Etc.

 

I was listening to BBC R4 and kids talking about preparing for the 11 plus. They were being coached in the 6c's (last one is check etc) and obviously from good school good parent backgrounds. Expect them to pass and kids from far worse schools and parental backgrounds to fail. That is not meritocrity. But supposing one of these kids who has worked hard does fail having attached so much importance to passing. Aged 11 that kid will be destroyed and it will take years if not a lifetime to recover confidence. It is straight forward wrong and as a member of the Conservative Party that is what I will respond with to the green paper. To be fair May is following a proper consultation process - green, white, Bill etc.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I live in a selective area. The only chance to transfer to a grammar school - or six form college - comes at age 16. It would require special arrangements to do anything else including promotion / relegation of kids or creating additional capacity from say 13 onwards etc.

 

I feel lucky. I got over this set back because I worked and my qualifications - not intelligence - put me in the top few percent of the population. With my son who failed his 11 plus - and we did not push him to pass because I see kids pushed to get to grammar blow up when they can't keep up - is now doing a medical degree and will be a doctor in a couple of years. He already has a degree in radiography and practicised as such.

 

But he would probably have been good enough to do the medical degree aged 18 if he had been at a better school. So the 11 plus is doing many adverse things. It is shutting out kids from achieving what they could if all went to good schools. It is wasting resources in the case of my son - difficult to quantify but significant - as he would have done what he is doing now from 18. Etc.

 

I was listening to BBC R4 and kids talking about preparing for the 11 plus. They were being coached in the 6c's (last one is check etc) and obviously from good school good parent backgrounds. Expect them to pass and kids from far worse schools and parental backgrounds to fail. That is not meritocrity. But supposing one of these kids who has worked hard does fail having attached so much importance to passing. Aged 11 that kid will be destroyed and it will take years if not a lifetime to recover confidence. It is straight forward wrong and as a member of the Conservative Party that is what I will respond with to the green paper. To be fair May is following a proper consultation process - green, white, Bill etc.

 

Many points there which I may come back to but IMO it is not simply wrong for a child to experience failure at 11...for some it will have adverse effects but for some it will drive them to want to prove themselves..its never black and white.