UK gains £20bn from European migrants

[carl]

 

Eh?

 

See my recent posts "Hidden basic educational costs"

[Bycarsbill]

It's a shame of the millions that are wasted in educational grants to supply local colleges and institutions with so called "esol" courses English for speakers of other languages- that attend to learn the basics of English- because they have no basic grasp of English nor have ability to understand the moral issues of English speaking.

 

THIS WAS NOT INCLUSIVE OF THE FIGURES PRODUCED YESTERDAY-"THE BASIC EDUCATIONAL COSTS OF BRINGING EASTERN EUROPEANS ENGLISH UP TO A "BASIC STANDARD"

 

Thousands and thousands OF ENGLISH NATIONALS that can speak good English, therefore are a better proposition for the thousands and thousands of unskilled jobs that require a grasp of basic English.

 

Many who come over cannot even speak basic English- and it comes to a huge taxpayer cost, whilst tuition fees for our own people who want to get on and study for a professional qualification now can seldom afford it.

 

So they are "better educated"??- well, I beg to differ.

 

I totally respect your right to differ from me, but I think you missed my main point; I still believe that it's generally the better educated eastern Europeans who come over and do well because they are indeed better educated. Many of them, (not necessarily in top-paid jobs), are university graduates. It takes courage and a certain level of confidence to 'up sticks' and move away from your home, family and country of birth. Of course not all immigrants speak perfect English, but it could be easily argued that neither do a proportion of UK-born people--listen to Alan Sugar on the Apprentice--for just one such example--it drives me mad how he 'mangles' his sentences and tenses and he's a millionaire!

[JOHNNYAITCH]

It's a shame of the millions that are wasted in educational grants to supply local colleges and institutions with so called "esol" courses English for speakers of other languages- that attend to learn the basics of English- because they have no basic grasp of English nor have ability to understand the moral issues of English speaking.

 

Moral issues?

 

THIS WAS NOT INCLUSIVE OF THE FIGURES PRODUCED YESTERDAY-"THE BASIC EDUCATIONAL COSTS OF BRINGING EASTERN EUROPEANS ENGLISH UP TO A "BASIC STANDARD"

 

And what are they, what are the figures? My gardener Wozneeski speaks no English but I manage to make myself understood "work" "no pay this week" and "shed again tonight" are all I need to get across to him ;)

 

Thousands and thousands OF ENGLISH NATIONALS that can speak good English, therefore are a better proposition for the thousands and thousands of unskilled jobs that require a grasp of basic English.

 

Clearly they are not a better proposition or employers would employ them instead.

 

Did you mean BRITISH nationals?

 

Many who come over cannot even speak basic English- and it comes to a huge taxpayer cost, whilst tuition fees for our own people who want to get on and study for a professional qualification now can seldom afford it.

 

Figures please?

 

There have always been people who cannot afford the education they'd like..that is nothing new

 

So they are "better educated"??- well, I beg to differ.

 

Depends how you determine better educated. If they have a degree or professional qualification but don't speak very good English doesn't that still make them better educated than a Brit who has no qualifications at all?

 

Personally if I was an employer and had to choose between a Pole who spoke poor English but had shown the initiative and drive to come here to get a job and a Brit who had no qualifications I would not necessarily see the language issue as a deal breaker.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

See my recent posts "Hidden basic educational costs"

 

I was referring to this "a slate against the various hardworking non eu migrants"

 

Eh?

[Santa]

So they are "better educated"??- well, I beg to differ.

Statistically, yes.

 

The same study found that:

 

Around half of the UK population over 23 left full time education before the age of 17, whereas the number of immigrants who left full time education before the age of 17 was 1 in 5, and 1 in 4 for those from outside Europe.

 

62% of EU migrants from Western Europe (ie the non-A10 countries) have degrees.

 

so called "esol"

Yes, that is what it is called. Although it did used to be called TEFL.

[kevin_struggles]

Probably not, people will believe what they want to believe.

 

Including you it seems ;)

[carl]

I totally respect your right to differ from me, but I think you missed my main point; I still believe that it's generally the better educated eastern Europeans who come over and do well because they are indeed better educated. Many of them, (not necessarily in top-paid jobs), are university graduates. It takes courage and a certain level of confidence to 'up sticks' and move away from your home, family and country of birth. Of course not all immigrants speak perfect English, but it could be easily argued that neither do a proportion of UK-born people--listen to Alan Sugar on the Apprentice--for just one such example--it drives me mad how he 'mangles' his sentences and tenses and he's a millionaire!

 

I'm sorry but I have worked in a Distribution centre with these EU migrants and can relate to how poor and a struggle it is for them to carry out basic instructions.

 

The cheek of it is they rely on the British worker to carry them and make sure that they know what they are doing.

[carl]

Statistically, yes.

 

The same study found that:

 

Around half of the UK population over 23 left full time education before the age of 17, whereas the number of immigrants who left full time education before the age of 17 was 1 in 5, and 1 in 4 for those from outside Europe.

 

62% of EU migrants from Western Europe (ie the non-A10 countries) have degrees.

 

 

Yes, that is what it is called. Although it did used to be called TEFL.

 

Then they should also take a "degree" in their own country at their own countries cost, in Basic English.

[carl]

 

Personally if I was an employer and had to choose between a Pole who spoke poor English but had shown the initiative and drive to come here to get a job and a Brit who had no qualifications I would not necessarily see the language issue as a deal breaker.

 

That just about sums up what I have said about the contempt and predjudice from the establishment and the better off in regards to the poorer less educated in this country.

 

I say that statement is more savage and betrayal than any comment said against EU migrants.

[Bycarsbill]

I'm sorry but I have worked in a Distribution centre with these EU migrants and can relate to how poor and a struggle it is for them to carry out basic instructions.

 

The cheek of it is they rely on the British worker to carry them and make sure that they know what they are doing.

 

I respect your view on this particular aspect as you clearly have some first-hand experience. However, I too, have experience in doing some consultancy projects alongside erudite, well-educated Polish guys who are proud to be utlising their education in an environment that very much welcomes and stretches them intellectually. Unfortunately most publicly pronounced views are simply myopic and prejudiced. I guess the truth is that in all societies (whether immigrant or 'home-grown') there are good & bad examples of those who are prepared or not prepared to work and fit-in to society.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

I'm sorry but I have worked in a Distribution centre with these EU migrants and can relate to how poor and a struggle it is for them to carry out basic instructions.

 

Are they typical? I work with lost of people form the EU and there are not such issues

 

Blame the employers for not training them or recruiting them and hoping everything would magically work out. Although they must see them as a better proposition or they would not employ them

 

The cheek of it is they rely on the British worker to carry them and make sure that they know what they are doing.

 

WHat's the problem with helping your workmates to do their job?

[JOHNNYAITCH]

That just about sums up what I have said about the contempt and predjudice from the establishment and the better off in regards to the poorer less educated in this country.

 

I am part of the establishment and the better off? I wish I'd known that, I'd have quit working 13 hours a day for something posher a long time ago:doh:

 

Contempt and prejudice? Utter rubbish. I would have no contempt for either and no prejudice against either, quite the opposite..I just would not necessarily see the language issue as a deal breaker..all the candidates would have their pros and cons and a lack of English does not have to be a con.

 

I say that statement is more savage and betrayal than any comment said against EU migrants.

 

Quite the opposite..I was stating how even handed I would be and not dismiss the Polish chap as a possible employee just cos he had a poor command of English nor the English chap just cos he had no qualifications..pros and cons

[carl]

Are they typical?

 

 

 

WHat's the problem with helping your workmates to do their job?

 

What's the problem with helping workmates who can speak perfect English and why go to the extent of bringing people into a business with a clear language barrier.

 

The answer is that is keeps the labour bill low and prevents people within the organisation of clubbing together into union situations to fight for better t & c's ect ect (which would be easier as the majority would not be tied to agencies, agencies which could easily take the migrant out of work)

 

I would say the problem is typical unless they come to the UK with fluent English speaking skills- and this requirement should be mandatory under a controlled migration policy.

[Paul6754]

It did make me chuckle when I saw the title of this thread as the few times we ever played Scrabble as a family, my dad who was self employed, always had, if he could, the words tax and VAT made up ready to play. We used to point out VAT was not a word but it was all in vain, he just couldn't help it.

[JOHNNYAITCH]

What's the problem with helping workmates who can speak perfect English

 

No problem at all

 

and why go to the extent of bringing people into a business with a clear language barrier.

 

I'm guessing that your employers aren't stupid so they are obviously happy to do that; they are getting good enough employees and the language barrier is not a major issue. If it were they would not employ them

 

The answer is that is keeps the labour bill low

 

Well obviously..they'll try to do that with everyone that they employ..good enough to do the job is what matters

 

Keeps costs down, keeps prices for goods and services affordable, helps the business to survive, helps keep people in jobs, helps businesses expand to recruit more people and yes helps the organisation to make a profit (and so pay more taxes to help pay for public services).

 

and prevents people within the organisation of clubbing together into union situations to fight for better t & c's ect ect (which would be easier as the majority would not be tied to agencies, agencies which could easily take the migrant out of work)

 

I agree that agency work is an issue..I did a lot of agency work when I was a student for very low pay and at times in appalling and (looking back) dangerous conditions. I'm pretty confident that agency workers are still exploited more then permies but at least minimum/living wage has improved things somewhat and the law on agency workers has improved..quite rightly

 

But the responsibility of owners/managers is to do what's best for the organisation..they only agree to better terms and conditions cos it's better for the organisation or because legally they have to agree to them. They give something to 'the workers' to avoid disruption to the organisation, to gte more out of 'workers' or cos they have to. I totally believe in unions and their fight for employee rights but there has to be a a balance and we've seen what happens when the balance goes wrong

 

I would say the problem is typical unless they come to the UK with fluent English speaking skills- and this requirement should be mandatory under a controlled migration policy.

 

You see it as a problem your employers do not..or at least it's a problem that can be dealt with

 

It's up to employers to decide if someone has the skills/knowledge etc to do the job, including the level of language skills required. If a command of English is absolutely necessary (as I believe it is in some jobs..nursing, teaching for example) then they should not recruit someone who does not have such a command of English. If it's deemed not necessary by the employer then so be it; it will work out or it won't. As long as they act within the law it's up to employers to decide who they recruit.