Changes to the law

[Fosse69]

What about men using bags on wheels?

That old chestnut about driving capability?

[RailwayRowdy]

I don't know how you can say that an addicted child or someone with severe learning difficulties who gets addicted or someone with severe depression (through a medical/physical cause) who becomes an addict and so on can always be said to be at fault for their addiction

 

For me it's a bit much (to say the least) to hold a child responsible when they are after all..children. Someone may have the mental age of a child so same thing and when you're depressed...well perhaps drugs/drink and the addiction that follows is a better alternative to suicide?

 

But your position is clear.

 

 

I'll leave it there

Who mentioned children or people with learning difficulties ? I suspect you're playing devils advocate, but I presumed we were talking adults who can make educated decisions for themselves. If this is the case, then I stand by my comments.

[RailwayRowdy]

Does that include alcohol, and does it mean anyone overweight who gets diabetes should not be treated on the NHS ? Would help be withdrawn from people who want to stop smoking? Gambling addictions ?

 

Many people who fall prey to these temptations are victims of advertising, peer pressure, group/gang mentaility, even parent pressure sometimes.

I hear what you say, but adults still make decisions on the way they choose to live their lives, knowing the possible consequences. I, for example, drink like a fish, but accept the consequences of my actions. Nowadays, we live in a "namby pamby" state where it is always someone else's fault. People should be held responsible for their own actions.

[philpvfc]

Everyone should have help if they need it or seek it but everyone should be accountable for what they do, wether be high, drunk, alcoholic or junky. If they do the crime they should do the time.

[Bea Smith]

I hear what you say, but adults still make decisions on the way they choose to live their lives, knowing the possible consequences. I, for example, drink like a fish, but accept the consequences of my actions. Nowadays, we live in a "namby pamby" state where it is always someone else's fault. People should be held responsible for their own actions.

 

 

Let's take smoking as a start - how many people start smoking at 21 or older ? Virtually none. They start at 10,11, 13, or younger at school - many times they see their parents smoking, and are not really to blame for taking it up and becoming addicted.

How many people don't have any alcohol until after their 16th birthday ?

Drugs are cmmon amongst 12-14 year olds, they get started and addicted well before they are adults.

You possibly know this as I was sorry to see you had been affected personally with a family emember being involved.

It isn't always a question of the state being 'namby-pamby'. A state benefits if it rehabilitates its citizens, if heroin addicts are allowed controlled dose heroin in clean needles they will not commit hundreds of burglaries or need lifelong medical treatment.

If alcoholics are helped, they may not drive and kill someone, if people stop smoking they will not ed so much NHS treatment - it is to everyone's benefit.

[RailwayRowdy]

Again, I hear what you say. But as a youngster I was around all these people you talk about. Family, friends etc. but I decided these were not paths I wanted to go down. So I didn't. There may be reasons why people do, but no excuses as to why they did.

[Birches Head Fred]

I'd like to see the age at which a child becomes an adult to be a specific age, say 16.

 

You can win umpteen millions on the lottery at 16 yet you cannot buy a beer to celebrate.

You can join the army and die for your country at 16 yet you cannot vote for the government that sends you to war.

You are an adult aged 5 according to airlines who simply rip off anyone with youngsters.

Buses similarly.

 

It's too complex and should be set at one age.

[Bea Smith]

Again, I hear what you say. But as a youngster I was around all these people you talk about. Family, friends etc. but I decided these were not paths I wanted to go down. So I didn't. There may be reasons why people do, but no excuses as to why they did.

 

You and I made the right choices, I had opportunities and saw other people making drug use look glamorous - but how much blame and lack of sympathy, lack of help, can we attach to a kid of 12 who makes the wrong decision, sometimes even gets bullied into the wrong decision? Do they need excuses at that age, they are vulnerable and possibly too immature and uneducated to know what they are getting into.

In Holland kids of this age and younger are taken to see drug addicts and people very ill from alcohol abuse and similar unpleasant things, and the result has been a massive reduction in hard drug usage. We should do that here.

After all, kids of that age or slightly younger are not culpable for many things in law.

[Bea Smith]

I'd like to see the age at which a child becomes an adult to be a specific age, say 16.

 

You can win umpteen millions on the lottery at 16 yet you cannot buy a beer to celebrate.

You can join the army and die for your country at 16 yet you cannot vote for the government that sends you to war.

You are an adult aged 5 according to airlines who simply rip off anyone with youngsters.

Buses similarly.

 

It's too complex and should be set at one age.

 

I agree with you on most of those things, and voting should certainly be at 16 if, as you rightly point out, you can get killed or your country.

Alcohol is 21 in the US is it not ?

Kids of 18 could be sent to the horrors of Vietnam but not have a beer.

Not sure about seats though, on airlines and buses - as people get child benefit and other things, and a child is using the same resource as an adult with one seat.

[philpvfc]

The mentality in Holland is very different from here, that's what needs to change over here and IMO it does before we can even consider legalising drugs.

[RailwayRowdy]

The mentality in Holland is very different from here, that's what needs to change over here and IMO it does before we can even consider legalising drugs.

Due to freedom of movement within the EU, I have been fortunate enough to work with Dutch immigrants working within the UK.. The one thing that shines through in conversation with the Dutch nationals is how much emphasis is placed on education at such a young age. For example, they are taught English from the age of 4/5 yrs old. Your's and Bea's comments about their education system is spot on. Yet another example of what we can learn from our European neighbours. The Dutch especially.

[geosname]

First one - no, If it is clear someone is genuinely totally rehabilitated then for some crimes, it might be appropriate to allow them out. Also, practical problems in prisons if a someone knows he is not going to get out regardless, they may kill a prison officer or another inmate. More in favour of stricter time in prison, for instance badly behaved prisoners to get no TV or internet for set periods.

 

 

I agree with the second one, no one shamed without conviction.

 

The smoking pub sounds liberal and free, but sometimes people are obliged to work or go into pubs when they don't smoke, and that law would risk the health of these people. IF a group go out together, one strong character who smoked could take advantage of someone else's politeness who might not want to appear awkward by saying they wont go in a smoking pub. Verdict - no, a backward step.

 

Agree with an alcohol price increase, especially in supermarkets, and also controls on strength of what is sold.

 

Legalise prostitution ? - perhaps decriminalise, but totally open, with advertising everywhere (though it practically is already) - no. I assume you mean at over a certain age too, and perhaps in this cae it might be better at 18 or 21. Mixed feelings on this - if it were done, then do it as in Amsterdam, taxed, controlled fully and with massively sevee penalties for any asccoiated human trafficking or underage misuse.

 

The first was standardised sentencing... with life to mean life as the second [forgot the enter]

simple solution to the second being dont sentence to life unless thats what is meant. solution to first is more difficult with mitigating circumstances etc.

The third is law to be applied to everyone...

fourth.... I dont completely agree with your reasoning [smoking pubs]

Decriminalising prostitution is a step short for me, it wouldnt control it and it needs control

[geosname]

I agree, they shouldn't be treated differently. I wouldn't treat ANY Of them. It's all their own fault. Why should decent people have to pay for their misdemeanors ?

 

My mother was an addict

Mothers little helpers [Librium] prescribed by doctors for well over 30 years as the answer to all her problems... admitted to hospital in her late 60s to try to get her off them... which failed because the affects were doing more damage than continuing.

[geosname]

I'd like to see the age at which a child becomes an adult to be a specific age, say 16.

 

You can win umpteen millions on the lottery at 16 yet you cannot buy a beer to celebrate.

You can join the army and die for your country at 16 yet you cannot vote for the government that sends you to war.

You are an adult aged 5 according to airlines who simply rip off anyone with youngsters.

Buses similarly.

 

It's too complex and should be set at one age.

 

I agree in part, its far to confusing but we have to decide if its an age of adulthood or responsibility... criminal responsibility used to be very low.

I do find it odd that a 16 year old can decide to become pregnant and be responsible enough to care for another life but not responsible enough to vote/smoke/drink/drive etc

[Bea Smith]

Decriminalising prostitution is a step short for me, it wouldnt control it and it needs control

 

Decriminalisng could allow control, maybe we are just using different words but I clearly said in the post it needs control, taxing and age and health checks, as in Amsterdam.

Many people are also under the impression that cannabis/marijuana is legal in Amsterdam - it isn't. it is not fully criminalised but is actually not legal either, the Dutch choose not to impose the law, which allows fuller control. If someone smokes a joint at a bus stop, for instance they will soon find themselves in trouble, but they can go to a cofffeeshop or do what they want at home to some extent. Very sensible.