Hillsborough.

[Howjy04]

Nice to see 2 opposites agreeing and giving praise where it's due Nick.

......

[Howjy04]

Melv, study the Echo footage.3 times.Where were they supposed to go?So if the gate was not opened what would or may have happened?Duckenfield is a lying **** no question but I'm not sure what else could have been done.Tradegy outside or inside?RIP the 96.

........

[Howjy04]

It was a question I asked not a statement.

 

.......

[Howjy04]

in a all ticket perfect world there would have been room, if they had gone to all available spaces, if you look at pictures of that end it is packed, there's a picture of outside the gate at 1453 and it shows a great number of fans with fans climbing up and sitting astride the wall, but when the gates opened however many times those outside weither with tickets or not and there must have been some without who took the opportunity to go in, and with the pitch in sight went for it. I believe the fence gates were not opened because the situation was not realised, and to have opened the fence gates would have defeated there object and allowed Liverpool fans to go onto the pitch and to the Nott Forest fans as the banter and chanting with the Notts Forest fans was ongoing even to when casualties were being taken onto the pitch.

Serious mistakes were made and we have learnt by them, and now others will be brought to account, but the outside gates were opened to relieve a potential accident, but then caused a greater unforeseen one...

The coroner rightly said "none of the 96 Liverpool fans were to blame" they wer'nt what killed them was being the innocents between the fence and that surge of fans coming in.

[Howjy04]

I was in tears on the day hobo not 27 years later.

[Fosse69]

I have deleted certain posts which have no place in this thread, to avoid closing it,

There are other places to trade political insults, etc. This thread is too important, and needs to be kept open to expose the truth, and not to decend into a slanging match.

[Howjy04]

I have deleted certain posts which have no place in this thread, to avoid closing it,

There are other places to trade political insults, etc. This thread is too important, and needs to be kept open to expose the truth, and not to decend into a slanging match.

 

Quite correct Fosse,my apologies.

[Fosse69]

Quite correct Fosse,my apologies.

Accepted

[mr.hobblesworth]

Whilst I appreciate why you've deleted some posts, your stated reason for editing my original post as being

 

Reason: Off topic

 

is not true.

 

Whilst the events of the actual day were just unimaginably awful, horrible and tragic, the continued blaming of the victims and fellow supporters is a huge issue and of relevance to this thread. As the excerpt I quote illustrates, finally getting official word that the supporters did not contribute in any way to the disastrous events in Sheffield was the issue of paramount importance to many fans. Adrian Tempany states in that article that "To be unfairly blamed for killing people is an insult so grievous as to seriously disturb the mind." To then come on here and see people continuing to question the Liverpool fans' part in this, despite the jury's decision, was extremely galling and it would be remiss not to challenge it.

 

I will re-quote that part of the article again as it may be lost amongst the posts that follow it.

 

Then the moment is gone. For the coroner is on to Q7: “Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?”

 

This is not just a question of truth now: people’s lives are in the balance. To be unfairly blamed for killing people is an insult so grievous as to seriously disturb the mind. I know of one survivor, “Ian”, who lost a friend in pen 3. In 2007, Ian became upset about the controversy generated by the appearance of Kelvin MacKenzie on Newsnight, and a few weeks later he hanged himself. There was Stephen Whittle, who gave his match ticket to a friend, who died. In February 2011, Stephen stepped in front of an express train. Two of my mates who survived pen 3 have tried to kill themselves; both, mercifully, survived. But we know that if this next question goes against us, people will almost certainly take their own lives. The jury cannot know this, of course. I look around at Deb, at Richie, at Damian and Lou. No one looks at me.

 

The coroner: “Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Is your answer No?”

 

“It is.”

 

People leap to their feet and punch the air. But again, momentary relief, for we are only halfway there. Now, having answered No, the jury are asked a supplementary question: was there any behaviour on the part of supporters that may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? That “may” sets the threshold so low, we fear the jury are practically being urged to find against us. As Tim Knowles said over an anguished pint a few months ago: “What kind of question is ‘May have?’ I might be found responsible for killing my friends on the basis of a vague, theoretical possibility.”

 

But there is nothing vague about will happen to us: we will be vilified once more – for ever more – by the rightwing media and the police. We will be, for the first time in an official hearing, found culpable in killing our fellow fans. It is not the jury’s fault: they have been bounced into this. But people will die on a Yes, they may have…

 

The coroner: “Was there any behaviour on the part of supporters that may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Is your answer No?”

 

I am sitting down but my knees give way. Tears are falling either side of my nose. The woman with the reassuring voice says “It is.”

 

And the place erupts.

[Fosse69]

Whilst I appreciate why you've deleted some posts, your stated reason for editing my original post as being

 

 

 

is not true.

 

Whilst the events of the actual day were just unimaginably awful, horrible and tragic, the continued blaming of the victims and fellow supporters is a huge issue and of relevance to this thread. As the excerpt I quote illustrates, finally getting official word that the fans that day did not contribute in any way to the disastrous events in Sheffield was the issue or paramount importance to many fans. Adrian Tempany states in that article that "To be unfairly blamed for killing people is an insult so grievous as to seriously disturb the mind." To then come on here and see people continuing to question the Liverpool fans' part in this, despite the jury's decision was extremely galling and it would be remiss not to challenge this.

 

I will re-quote that part of the article again as it may be lost amongst the posts that follow it.

It was my reason to delete the posts on such an emotive thread. I hope you will accept the spirit of it, incidentally I do not need to give a reason.

 

Of course refuting the comments was correct, which was done earlier in the thread. If I have deleted anything critical, not previously shown please re-post.

[mr.hobblesworth]

Oh, I wasn't asking you for an explanantion for anything and don't take issue with you deleting what you did (not that it matters if I do). Cheers.

 

Christ, if this stirs up pain and anguish in me (and many others on here), imagine how it must feel to be one of the people who have been unjustly blamed and slurred over this for the last 27 years. Unfathomable.

[geosname]

Whilst I appreciate why you've deleted some posts, your stated reason for editing my original post as being

 

 

 

is not true.

 

Whilst the events of the actual day were just unimaginably awful, horrible and tragic, the continued blaming of the victims and fellow supporters is a huge issue and of relevance to this thread. As the excerpt I quote illustrates, finally getting official word that the supporters did not contribute in any way to the disastrous events in Sheffield was the issue of paramount importance to many fans. Adrian Tempany states in that article that "To be unfairly blamed for killing people is an insult so grievous as to seriously disturb the mind." To then come on here and see people continuing to question the Liverpool fans' part in this, despite the jury's decision, was extremely galling and it would be remiss not to challenge it.

 

I will re-quote that part of the article again as it may be lost amongst the posts that follow it.

 

that brought a tear to my eye...or at least the part that didnt requote

[mr.hobblesworth]

It's a really powerful piece of writing, isn't it? Such an insight in to how not just the actual deaths but the decades of slurs, lies, jibes and suspicions can have such a detrimental effect. I just hope that those affected can now start to live their lives again. I can't begin to state my admiration and respect for those that fought for so long for justice. I've been guilty of laughing at scousers in the past (not due to Hillsborough, I should add) but, in this regard, what a city.

[bookworm]

Remember the 1964 replay at Vale Park?Say no more!!!!

 

yes and the trail of footprints over the car roofs and the wall , scouse fans behaved impeccably that evening.

[geosname]

yes and the trail of footprints over the car roofs and the wall , scouse fans behaved impeccably that evening.

 

Now you are stereotyping... if we complain we were all branded racists thugs because of the few how can we accuse all because of the few?... idiots abound but not everyone is one