Leyton Orient (H) match thread 6th Feb

[kevin_struggles]

2 hours ago, PV1973 said:

Look at what happened when we went to 4 at the back last night. We just don’t have the players. You’re not telling me we couldn’t have got a right and left back in during the window. 

Fair enough but I would argue that we don't have the players to play 3 at the back either and its biting us on the backside game after game with one simple ball in behind where our wayward wing backs have left a space which then drags one of our centre backs over which leaves a gap through the middle for their strikers to exploit. Smith hasn't become a bad player overnight he is being pulled this way and that like all the other centre backs we have tried this season on both sides because we don't have athletic hard working wing backs who can track back quickly and who know when to go forwards and when to retreat back. If we play with four then whoever is in the full back position should never have to go off on a jolly up the other end of the pitch which means the two centre backs only have to worry about whats in front of them not what's coming down the sides.

 

There is a difference between trying to change part way through a game you are already losing and haven't had any time to prepare for and changing the formation during preparation for the match then starting that way. Its also, I suspect, easier to play out of position as an out and out defensive full back than it is to play as a full back and a winger at the same time - that requires a more a specialist skill set I think.

[Sandyford_Lion]

3 minutes ago, kevin_struggles said:

Fair enough but I would argue that we don't have the players to play 3 at the back either and its biting us on the backside game after game with one simple ball in behind where our wayward wing backs have left a space which then drags one of our centre backs over which leaves a gap through the middle for their strikers to exploit. Smith hasn't become a bad player overnight he is being pulled this way and that like all the other centre backs we have tried this season on both sides because we don't have athletic hard working wing backs who can track back quickly and who know when to go forwards and when to retreat back. If we play with four then whoever is in the full back position should never have to go off on a jolly up the other end of the pitch which means the two centre backs only have to worry about wants in front of them not what's coming down the sides.

 

There is a difference between trying to change part way through a game you are already losing and haven't had any time to prepare for and changing the formation during preparation for the match then starting that way. Its also, I suspect, easier to play out of position as an out and out defensive full back than it is to play as a full back and a winger at the same time - that requires a more a specialist skill set I think.

Systems, formations, positions, etc etc. There are plus's and negatives for them all.

Its down to the players on the pitch. Last nights team were awful. Players dont deserve another chance but they will have to play again. Shocking performance by so many :

Debra Lowe

Sang Weir Shorrock

Wilson

Loft

Do have to agree that to make us stand stronger in defence a back four is best.

Smith is our best defender / fighter by far and yet the management team of Flitcroft and Crosby and the tactics we employ have certainly ruined him as a player. He has always fought for the team and given hi all. He is not the best footballer by a long way but we knew what we would get.

Iacovitti, Balmer, Debra, Lowe, Kopata, Jones have all been brought in as a replacement for Smith and yet not one of them are a better player. Smith and any one of them others playing in the center of a back four would make us stronger for the remaining games and MIGHT give us a chance to stay up.

Still need to sort out the midfield 4 and two strikers., thats another one to solve....

Really dont know why i bother. Until Flitcroft goes it will never happen.

I cannot see Flitcroft going until Carol also says shes had enough and puts the club up for sale.

[Brian Johnson]

1 hour ago, Osh said:

Read it again.  I dont

Why do you want Troy Deeney to become manager?😁

[PV1973]

32 minutes ago, kevin_struggles said:

Fair enough but I would argue that we don't have the players to play 3 at the back either and its biting us on the backside game after game with one simple ball in behind where our wayward wing backs have left a space which then drags one of our centre backs over which leaves a gap through the middle for their strikers to exploit. Smith hasn't become a bad player overnight he is being pulled this way and that like all the other centre backs we have tried this season on both sides because we don't have athletic hard working wing backs who can track back quickly and who know when to go forwards and when to retreat back. If we play with four then whoever is in the full back position should never have to go off on a jolly up the other end of the pitch which means the two centre backs only have to worry about wants in front of them not what's coming down the sides.

 

There is a difference between trying to change part way through a game you are already losing and haven't had any time to prepare for and changing the formation during preparation for the match then starting that way. Its also, I suspect, easier to play out of position as an out and out defensive full back than it is to play as a full back and a winger at the same time - that requires a more a specialist skill set I think.

Totally agree with you. We can’t play either system because of the players we have. At least if we’d brought in a left and right back they could fit into that system and be a bit more disciplined defensively (you’d think)

[ValeFanInBrum]

I was thinking, surely virtually all professional footballers know how to play in a 4-4-2, almost regardless of whether they are a wing back or full back?! But then I’ve never played the game other than a kick about at school 

[Osh]

An open letter from Carol | News | Port Vale

WWW.PORT-VALE.CO.UK

 

Brian - read the comments attached to that.  Telling Carol to shove their season tickets up her arse.  Told you this would happen.  People always think they know best and not prepared to work with her.

I think they've just told the very best owner we could hope for that they dont want her.  She will sell.

Vale fans: be careful what you wish for.  The next Norman Smurf might be just around the corner.

[Doha]

3 hours ago, Wrex said:

Was it my imagination or was there an analyst in the early days who left the club for somewhere bigger?

Certainly the strategy changed from signing undervalued gems like Ben Garrity to hoping Premier League loanees like Dan Gore will do the business for us.

I wonder if that's partly because we no longer have the capability to identify talent ourselves.

I'm not sure mate.

The club has some weird fundamental complex about signing strikers.

The last 3 windows have been so catastrophically poor that if I was Carol/Kevin paying for it all I'd be living at the blood pressure clinic at the Royal Stoke.

We had 1 striker all summer until 2 days before the season started when we signed Thomas on loan, who'd never played a game. Then on deadline day we left that 1 fit striker leave to sign Loft, who's scored less league goals than Nathan Smith.

The club later publicly said we were in for Stockton etc and the reasons we missed out wasn't money related. WTF were the reasons then that a number of strikers went nah I'll give that a miss, some of them to go instead to much small clubs further away from where they're from?

[JRC]

1 minute ago, ValeFanInBrum said:

I was thinking, surely virtually all professional footballers know how to play in a 4-4-2, almost regardless of whether they are a wing back or full back?! But then I’ve never played the game other than a kick about at school 

They used to but most get picked up by academies at a young age, so they don't play traditional schools/ lads and dads football. A lot of academies deliberately play players in different positions.  Devine was equally comfortable as a 10 or holding midfield because he's played both. Mighton played a lot of youth football as a forward. Mainly played on the wing for the first team (not exclusively). Played as a wingback at Sheffield Wednesday.  Sang has played more football at Cardiff and during loans as a wingback than anywhere else. Too often people look at Wikipedia and decide what a players "specialist " position is but for a lot of younger players it's more fluid. Most young players are used to different formations and positions at academies. 

442 only became really dominant in the 70s. 1966 England played 433 and a lot of teams played that way in the early 70s. The 80s was almost exclusively 442 in British football.  The top level changed in the 90s and that's now trickled down. Even sides that set up 442 often push a fullback or centrehalf into midfield for times in games and/or one of the strikers spends a lot of time deeper. 

[Wrex]

19 minutes ago, Doha said:

The club later publicly said we were in for Stockton etc and the reasons we missed out wasn't money related. WTF were the reasons then that a number of strikers went nah I'll give that a miss, some of them to go instead to much small clubs further away from where they're from?

It has to be money, surely?

I mean fair enough if we are incapable of signing an undervalued striker on reasonable money, but just plain bizarre that a "body" such as Jerome Thomas couldn't have been sourced from somewhere to at least give us a chance / give off the impression we're trying

[ValeFanInBrum]

18 minutes ago, JRC said:

They used to but most get picked up by academies at a young age, so they don't play traditional schools/ lads and dads football. A lot of academies deliberately play players in different positions.  Devine was equally comfortable as a 10 or holding midfield because he's played both. Mighton played a lot of youth football as a forward. Mainly played on the wing for the first team (not exclusively). Played as a wingback at Sheffield Wednesday.  Sang has played more football at Cardiff and during loans as a wingback than anywhere else. Too often people look at Wikipedia and decide what a players "specialist " position is but for a lot of younger players it's more fluid. Most young players are used to different formations and positions at academies. 

442 only became really dominant in the 70s. 1966 England played 433 and a lot of teams played that way in the early 70s. The 80s was almost exclusively 442 in British football.  The top level changed in the 90s and that's now trickled down. Even sides that set up 442 often push a fullback or centrehalf into midfield for times in games and/or one of the strikers spends a lot of time deeper. 

Thanks.

So I suppose what I was thinking remains - if they are used to playing in all sorts of different formations then, be it 4-4-2 or 5-3-2 or whatever, would that not be better than persisting with the same (current) formation that hasn't really worked for 2 seasons?!

[PVFC764]

1 hour ago, Osh said:

An open letter from Carol | News | Port Vale

WWW.PORT-VALE.CO.UK

 

 

This is a good letter from their point of view to ease the protests. 

However, he is part of "What's on the pitch" side of things - so is responsible for it.  He should have sacked or brought it up with Carol and family the manager was not working and should be released a lot earlier.  The fans could see it back in Oct 23 it was not working anymore.  No he waits till the window has closed so a new manager does not have the facility to bring in or get players out he wants to work with.  Seems a bit like he is trying to sabotage things.

Could understand one bad transfer window - but we have had several bad windows where we needed strikers and other positions and guess what failed big style.  This has made us worse each Jan window, as some of the panic signings have taken months to get match fit, or the style of play does not suit their playing style and they look useless.  

Funny - keep us in this league.  Well that isn't going to happen this year is it.  So a big fail on that one.

[worldsendvalefan]

First thing a new manager has to do for me is change the system.
Why we are playing wing backs when we don't have a player capable of playing wing back is beyond me. 
Why don't we tackle? We're being outplayed and we don't look interested. My reaction would be to stick a big tackle in on someone and get people going a bit. We just shadow people. Too nice. Just smash someone and get everyone up. That's all it takes to change at atmosphere. 

Problem is Flitcroft won't allow this as it's not part of his Port Vale ethos. Under him we will not buy players who do this or employ managers who would do this.
More and more I think Crosby was working with his hands tied behind his back.

Sent from my SM-A528B using onevalefan mobile app

[Guest]

As of today we in the bottom 4 .

These are the questions I want answering. 

Do you the club, want Port Vale Football Club win football games .

If you do why did you not see fit to bring in a striker with Uche been out till last game of the season (actually 2 strikers )and a lwb .

Why have you sacked Crosby now there was really no point in doing so with transfer window closed fair enough a month before after Middlesborough but the timing is absurd .

Who saw fit to leave Wilson on all last night .

Why is Connor Ripley the only one got the guts apologise when is performances generally have been great .

Why is Smith saying they will work harder now in after match interview last night  ,why now why not all the other games which we have lost .

Like I say I'm fuming 32 years of me  watching Vale and I'm really concerned about what these players can produce over last 18 games .

Carol to me is great .

I hope the next appointment turns things for all her family in the right way with a W by Vale most weeks .

Another thing what has constantly got on me nerves about Vale is at 1-0 down they don't send up the big centre half to cause chaos in away defences so to me it seems not more than once we have settled on defeats so to me that's got be aimed at the players

Where's the will to WIN 

[PV1973]

4 hours ago, ValeFanInBrum said:

I was thinking, surely virtually all professional footballers know how to play in a 4-4-2, almost regardless of whether they are a wing back or full back?! But then I’ve never played the game other than a kick about at school 

True we’ve all started off that way. But we don’t have any fit full backs in the squad, and arguably we don’t even have.  only have a left back (unless you count jones as one), plus we only have one winger don’t we?  Problem is that even though anyone could play in that formation and know the basics, we probably don’t have a game plan for it to know each others roles and what to do during a game. Such a disjointed squad. 

[kevin_struggles]

21 minutes ago, PV1973 said:

True we’ve all started off that way. But we don’t have any fit full backs in the squad, and arguably we don’t even have.  only have a left back (unless you count jones as one), plus we only have one winger don’t we?  Problem is that even though anyone could play in that formation and know the basics, we probably don’t have a game plan for it to know each others roles and what to do during a game. Such a disjointed squad. 

MIghten and massey are wingers so that's at least two and I would probably add sang and shorrock to the list both are much better higher up the pitch than they are defending and sang is the best crosser of the ball at the club.