January Transfers and Rumours

[valiant_593]

 

27 minutes ago, JoeB2 said:

Think I can more succinctly argue this by saying that the payoff for what we're doing now is going to be in 2-3 seasons time - and even that isn't guaranteed. We're playing quite dull possession football, signing loan players who inevitably get recalled, and giving minutes to young players who probably aren't ready in the hope that we get the rewards in 2027.

The possession football makes us a more attractive proposition to both technical lower-league players, and Category 1 academies. By developing Devine and Arblaster we now have a track record of development to sell to Man City, Liverpool, and Man Utd. By playing Dipepa, Lomax, and Shorrock, we show the top 15 year olds in the country that there's a concrete pathway.

That's fine if you're getting paid to oversee it, but less fine if you're paying to watch it.

The challenge is bringing the fans into the process and achieving buy-in, even if some never will. It's making each week just about entertaining enough to avoid the fans turning and the DoF/Owner facing real pressure to bin off a project they'd committed 5 years to.

Are the young lads we have that good is it is a consequence of a poor squad that’s injury prone. Shorrock looks a decent prospect, to be honest I’m not convinced on dipepa or lomax, they’re still very young so loads of time to develop but we should be pinning on hopes on players who only got a game because the likes of Massey and Loft have been so poor. 

A plan is all well and good but isn’t an excuse for boring football, we’ve seen recently that when his hand is forced Crosby can get us playing a more exciting style. 

Id be shocked if there are many sides out there where they’ve set out a 5 year plan and it’s worked / not deviated from the original plan. I’m not sure I want to watch another 5 years of this in the hope that one of our younger players comes good in 2027. There has to be more of a plan than sign good loan players and lose them when they’re recalled as we aren’t progressing. We also only just stayed up last season and this season is following a similar path. We need improvements now as well having this longer term plan, it can’t be one or the other 

Edited January 21 by valiant_593

[barny61]

11 minutes ago, smithie said:

Some of the people who stand near me haven't got the patience to see how 5 passes develop never mind 5 years.

There's a  few behind me that keep shouting "forward" gets on my wick.🙄🙄

[Brian Johnson]

29 minutes ago, soothsayer said:

That isn’t how contracts work! 

It does in football.

Contracts in football are unlike your normal standard working contract.

The only time a player does not get paid his contract up, is if the player himself asks to leave.

Its the same with managers. Even when a manager is total tripe, why do you think you never hear of a manager resigning because he knows he will get paid up

Uche gets 6 months wages from Vale plus his signing on fee at the club he signs for if he moves in this transfer window

[robf]

The club is bringing in permanent signings - it's not just relying on loan signings.

This season you could argue that Ripley, Debrah, Chislett and Ikpeazu are permanent signings that are upgrades. The problem as I see it is that the club also needs to up its success rate on permanent deals. Some aren't good enough, some have come with injury issues and are not available. This summer we brought in nine permanent signings (eleven if you include Debrah and Ikpeazu who arrived later).

The problem for me is that only the four I mentioned can be seen as clear successes meaning a lot of the others haven't worked out. Loft hasn't impressed. Grant, Iacovitti and Clark have all been injured. 

I think there's a mix of squad additions this season - permanent moves, loanees, graduates from the youth team. So, I don't think the issue is a short term approach of bringing in loanees which can be recalled. Eleven permanent signings doesn't suggest a reliance on loans. 

It's been a mixed bag - the loans have largely been successful, playing the kids was always going to be a long game (and there are glimpses of potential) but the area where the club could improve is with the permanent signings. If they can improve the success rate there (it's never going to be 100% but four out of eleven isn't great) then that would help.

[soothsayer]

5 minutes ago, Brian Johnson said:

It does in football.

Contracts in football are unlike your normal standard working contract.

The only time a player does not get paid his contract up, is if the player himself asks to leave.

Its the same with managers. Even when a manager is total tripe, why do you think you never hear of a manager resigning because he knows he will get paid up

Uche gets 6 months wages from Vale plus his signing on fee at the club he signs for if he moves in this transfer window

The rumour was that Uche did ask to speak to Charlton though so if true, he’d forego the balance on his contract. 
You are correct about managers which is why I rarely feel sorry for them. The current system means there are some very rich managers who’ve been serial failures.

[JoeB2]

As much as it's a bit rubbish for us, the 23/24 season is effectively a write-off and will be judged retroactively by where we are in 2 years time.

If we're competing towards the top 6 of this league as we've been able to improve this possession style to control and win games, if our academy is thriving as talented players can clearly see a pathway to minutes and contracts and therefore sign up, and if we continue to get some of the top young talent in the country as we're trusted by the big academies to develop them, then it's been a success. I doubt Crosby will still be here as most managers don't last two years. 

If we're nowhere further forward, or have gone backwards, then it was a failed plan, we wasted seasons, and the DoF responsible will have to take the rap. The owner who fundamentally has to create this plan, fund it, and support it, will face questions. It's brave.

We all want every season to mean something, and being a Port Vale fan 2000-2023 means it often did, but sometimes you're in a build phase and its all about next season. That's quite hard to sell to a fanbase who have either been going for promotion, relegation, going into administration, or protesting for pretty much the entire previous two decades. There's been perhaps 3 years of stability from 2013-16 when we finished broadly mid-table three times under Micky and Page, but had no strategy to go any further, and then Smurthwaite drank too much wine.

For the record, I'm not convinced we'll pull it off but will give it the time to find out.

Edited January 21 by JoeB2

[Hot Rat]

1 hour ago, JoeB2 said:

Think I can more succinctly argue this by saying that the payoff for what we're doing now is going to be in 2-3 seasons time - and even that isn't guaranteed. We're playing quite dull possession football, signing loan players who inevitably get recalled, and giving minutes to young players who probably aren't ready in the hope that we get the rewards in 2027.

The possession football makes us a more attractive proposition to both technical lower-league players, and Category 1 academies. By developing Devine and Arblaster we now have a track record of development to sell to Man City, Liverpool, and Man Utd. By playing Dipepa, Lomax, and Shorrock, we show the top 15 year olds in the country that there's a concrete pathway.

That's fine if you're getting paid to oversee it, but less fine if you're paying to watch it.

The challenge is bringing the fans into the process and achieving buy-in, even if some never will. It's making each week just about entertaining enough to avoid the fans turning and the DoF/Owner facing real pressure to bin off a project they'd committed 5 years to.

I agree with almost all of your observations but I think the current process doesn't consistently result in possession based football as I believe AC is using experience to tweek tactics more according to our results and the teams we are up against despite our injury list - I see this as a positive as other managers including DC persisted in Plan A despite evidence to show the opposition had us sussed (see Bruno Ribiero & John Askey). Over many years there has been a succession of managers who all had differing ideas on team tactics, but after one or two seasons (or less) due to lack of consistent progress were dismissed, followed by wholesale change in players. Personally I'd much prefer the club to have a long term plan and the opportunity to see our Academy players coming through and the opportunity to see the talented premier league loanees any day than an unpredictable future. I defy anyone to name a season in recent memory when we have consistently entertained and had not had a few matches  when it was like watching paint dry!

Edited January 21 by Hot Rat

[Rory]

We've got super Andy Crosby!

[Hot Rat]

28 minutes ago, Brian Johnson said:

It does in football.

Contracts in football are unlike your normal standard working contract.

The only time a player does not get paid his contract up, is if the player himself asks to leave.

Its the same with managers. Even when a manager is total tripe, why do you think you never hear of a manager resigning because he knows he will get paid up

Uche gets 6 months wages from Vale plus his signing on fee at the club he signs for if he moves in this transfer window

Mickey Adams resigned. 

[Brian Johnson]

33 minutes ago, soothsayer said:

The rumour was that Uche did ask to speak to Charlton though so if true, he’d forego the balance on his contract. 
You are correct about managers which is why I rarely feel sorry for them. The current system means there are some very rich managers who’ve been serial failures.

Where's the rumour come from that he' asked to speak to Charlton.

My understanding that Charlton made the approach first to Vale who then gave him permission to speak to them and not from Uche which means he is due his balance

[Brian Johnson]

17 minutes ago, Hot Rat said:

Mickey Adams resigned. 

Got anymore examples that were not 10 years ago?

Adams also had his contract paid up when he left for Sheffield United

[Boslem's Brazil]

4 minutes ago, Brian Johnson said:

Where's the rumour come from that he' asked to speak to Charlton.

My understanding that Charlton made the approach first to Vale who then gave him permission to speak to them and not from Uche which means he is due his balance

What you on about ‘he will be due his balance’? Do you think if Uche had gone to Charlton, Vale would be paying him for 6 months????? 

[Rory]

Due his balance lol

[gags 64]

What you on about ‘he will be due his balance’? Do you think if Uche had gone to Charlton, Vale would be paying him for 6 months????? 

That gets factored in to the deal. In essence Charlton would have paid it not Vale unless we wanted him to go and made a contribution

Sent from my XQ-CC54 using onevalefan mobile app

[JoeB2]

We're doing this: 

Argyle launch new five-year plan | Plymouth Argyle - PAFC

WWW.PAFC.CO.UK

We're not communicating it anywhere near as well. Say stuff like this, often and clearly, and I think the grumbling reduces (if not disappears):

“As we lay out the next five-year plan, I urge you to come on the journey with us, just as you have so brilliantly in the last few years. Together, we can achieve whatever we want to achieve, and who knows? Maybe one day that might be the Premier League…”

Edited January 21 by JoeB2