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2 minutes ago, PV1973 said:

Totally agree on Joyce. He’s nailed on to start as the holding midfielder for me too. He’s done it pretty much consistently at this level. Someone like Manny playing that role is an unknown quantity and when fully fit I think Mannys better in a more advanced role with the ball. Askey knows what he’s getting from Joyce there. 
 

I still believe that if we start with Monty at left back that teams will try to exploit that area of the pitch. A dedicated left back or Clark would be ideal additions. But having said that Campbell- Gordon should be saying to himself that if he has a good preseason then it could be his year. It was for Gibbo at that age. 

All fair comments.

The holding roll involves a lot of discipline, which Joyce demonstrates.  He also good at finding a bit of space and making himself available to receive the ball.  What we don't often see is Joyce picking the ball up and driving 40 yards upfield.  It's not what he does.  He'll lay the ball off to someone who can.

Manny, for me at least, is the opposite.  Not as disciplined as Joyce defensively but more able to power upfield and carry the ball a distance.  Manny is also a far greater goal threat.  Overall more suited to an more attack minded roll.

Campbell-Gordon has to show something this season.

As things stand we don't have a squad of world beaters, but it looks like there's a good blend and some interesting selection headaches ahead for the staff.  A couple of further decent additions wouldn't go amiss however.

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Nothing wrong with getting just a little carried away at the moment,  as long as we all remember that it's The Vale we're talking about. But then again this is the New Vale and it feels amazing,  even

I honestly despair with some Vale fans... Is it bred into our DNA that we have to seek out negativity???? As I'm typing this, we've have just launched the nicest football strip I can remember, desig

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Good point about Cambell-Gordon but also fourth place centre back and second place left back Crookes but Monty has played his best games at left back and has really added an attacking threat to the side can tackle and head and has great recovery pace.

Got to disagree that Manny Oyeleke is an unknown quantity playing central holding midfield because that was where the lad played and got player of the season and a move to the Vale and was originally at right back when young....can certainly see Oyeleke as midfield general in the centre of the park and the role might save the hamstrings......with Whitehead signed and Burgess playing right midfield it does look as if Askey is considering Joyce and Oyeleke for the central role.....now would Hurst perhaps be thought of as playing on the left of midfield as cover for Conlon.

Thinking about it Cambell-Gordon and Hurst a year on are they not now exactly the same age as Clark and Taylor were last season.

Anyway even without the loans next up a keeper and a striker.

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17 minutes ago, Burslem Academicals said:

Good point about Cambell-Gordon but also fourth place centre back and second place left back Crookes but Monty has played his best games at left back and has really added an attacking threat to the side can tackle and head and has great recovery pace.

Got to disagree that Manny Oyeleke is an unknown quantity playing central holding midfield because that was where the lad played and got player of the season and a move to the Vale and was originally at right back when young....can certainly see Oyeleke as midfield general in the centre of the park and the role might save the hamstrings......with Whitehead signed and Burgess playing right midfield it does look as if Askey is considering Joyce and Oyeleke for the central role.....now would Hurst perhaps be thought of as playing on the left of midfield as cover for Conlon.

Thinking about it Cambell-Gordon and Hurst a year on are they not now exactly the same age as Clark and Taylor were last season.

Anyway even without the loans next up a keeper and a striker.

Personally I can see Crookes being cover for left back and centre half. Before he got injured I felt he was getting exposed too much defensively and wasn’t offering what Monty, Gibbo and Clark were offering going forward either. Having said even when Monty and Clark went there I still thought that teams were specifically looking to get at us down that side with balls over the top into that channel. Maybe that was a reflection on the partnership of Smith and the left back or maybe teams were looking to exploit the relative inexperience of whoever was playing as a left back??
 

I don’t recall seeing manny play a holding role for us, so I don’t know what he’d be like there so right now I’d be putting Joyce there,  as I feel Mannys power and overall game is better suited to getting us up the pitch. Players like Joyce often go unnoticed because they do the simple things, but he was vital in linking play down the flanks last season and also getting us going when he picked the ball up and laid it off. And also just his overall positional discipline too. 

Edited by PV1973

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The point is that Burgess and Oyeleke were the two right side midfielders and Joyce the only central holding role (a position Oyeleke won player of the year playing before signing) now Askey signs Whitehead a right side midfielder and not cover for Joyce....therefore Oyeleke must be moving inside or Askey has made a mistake in having three right side midfielders and failing to sign cover for Joyce.

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19 minutes ago, Burslem Academicals said:

Good point about Cambell-Gordon but also fourth place centre back and second place left back Crookes but Monty has played his best games at left back and has really added an attacking threat to the side can tackle and head and has great recovery pace.

Got to disagree that Manny Oyeleke is an unknown quantity playing central holding midfield because that was where the lad played and got player of the season and a move to the Vale and was originally at right back when young....can certainly see Oyeleke as midfield general in the centre of the park and the role might save the hamstrings......with Whitehead signed and Burgess playing right midfield it does look as if Askey is considering Joyce and Oyeleke for the central role.....now would Hurst perhaps be thought of as playing on the left of midfield as cover for Conlon.

Thinking about it Cambell-Gordon and Hurst a year on are they not now exactly the same age as Clark and Taylor were last season.

Anyway even without the loans next up a keeper and a striker.

Although prone to the odd costly error, Monty would currently be most peoples choice at LB, unless we added someone like Clarke.  His occasional lack of good positional sense was highlighted last season, but as a converted winger this was to be expected.  We can only anticipate this will be worked on so we could expect to see some improvement.

On this subject I think the talk of teams "targeting" our LB or RB is over stated.  Most teams have decent wide players, certainly wide right, and look to get the ball out to the wings, so the full back, especially LB, is often placed under scrutiny, and doesn't always have the benefit of a covering player.  Our wide pitch exacerbates this situation.

I still believe, based on what I've seen myself, Manny is a more effective player around the oppositions box than around our own.

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Any team playing 4/3/3 with a narrow midfield and attacking full backs then the long diagonal is to be expected.....actually young Crookes is probably better defensively than Montano but going forward Montano is such an asset and when fit is a talented footballer and needs to be on the team sheet.....certainly that left side offers much going forward but in terms of quality and hardwork then both Conlon and Worral can offer Montano a degree of cover and protection.....also thinking about it if young Cambell-Gordon or Hurst get their chance then with such a settled side and quality and experience around about and the squad spirit then they have every chance to find their feet and grow in confidence.

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28 minutes ago, Burslem Academicals said:

The point is that Burgess and Oyeleke were the two right side midfielders and Joyce the only central holding role (a position Oyeleke won player of the year playing before signing) now Askey signs Whitehead a right side midfielder and not cover for Joyce....therefore Oyeleke must be moving inside or Askey has made a mistake in having three right side midfielders and failing to sign cover for Joyce.

No one has seen Manny play in that role though. What makes you think he’d be better than an already proven Joyce in that role? Of course we will need cover for Joyce but as it stands Joyce has that holding midfield spot for me at the moment. 

Edited by PV1973

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"No one has seen Manny play in that role though."

Possibly the  'Shots fans who voted Manny "player of the year" playing the role and Aspin and Port Vale scouts would have seen Manny play that role.......so it seems we have the "already proven" Joyce and "player of the year" Oyeleke for the role.....remember Joyce is an older player although quality but Oyeleke has to be probably our best midfielder and could be a revelation in the centre as a midfield general.

Anyway of course such thinking could be off the mark but that Askey has not signed a central midfielder but instead in Whitehead a right side attacking midfielder to compete with Burgess then it would seem that Oyeleke could be going back home into central midfield.

Being as in all seriousness a return for Taylor and indeed Clark seems unlikely as they will probably end up in league one and Askey has said that even paying a percentage of the wages of these big academy kids costs too much then perhaps it is just now a case of a backup keeper and a striker which could possibly be it and we go with what we've got....remember Cambell-Gordon and Hurst are now the same age as Clark and Taylor last season.

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49 minutes ago, Burslem Academicals said:

The point is that Burgess and Oyeleke were the two right side midfielders and Joyce the only central holding role (a position Oyeleke won player of the year playing before signing) now Askey signs Whitehead a right side midfielder and not cover for Joyce....therefore Oyeleke must be moving inside or Askey has made a mistake in having three right side midfielders and failing to sign cover for Joyce.

Conlon can also cover Joyce 

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Good point about Conlon who has the best passing range of all the midfielders and could make a good deep playmaker but Conlon seems nailed on at left midfield with perhaps Hurst as cover.....anyway Whitehead/Burgess/Oyeleke/Joyce/Conlon/Hurst even without Taylor is a cracking engine room.

 

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25 minutes ago, Burslem Academicals said:

"No one has seen Manny play in that role though."

Possibly the  'Shots fans who voted Manny "player of the year" playing the role and Aspin and Port Vale scouts would have seen Manny play that role.......so it seems we have the "already proven" Joyce and "player of the year" Oyeleke for the role.....remember Joyce is an older player although quality but Oyeleke has to be probably our best midfielder and could be a revelation in the centre as a midfield general.

Anyway of course such thinking could be off the mark but that Askey has not signed a central midfielder but instead in Whitehead a right side attacking midfielder to compete with Burgess then it would seem that Oyeleke could be going back home into central midfield.

Being as in all seriousness a return for Taylor and indeed Clark seems unlikely as they will probably end up in league one and Askey has said that even paying a percentage of the wages of these big academy kids costs too much then perhaps it is just now a case of a backup keeper and a striker which could possibly be it and we go with what we've got....remember Cambell-Gordon and Hurst are now the same age as Clark and Taylor last season.

I’m talking about Vale fans seeing him play in that role in league 2 and I’d rather trust my own eyes than someone other fans view that he’s the answer to a problem that at the moment doesn’t exist. Joyce’s performances don’t warrant him suddenly being omitted IMO. If Manny is so good as a holding midfielder why didn’t Aspin or Askey start him there when he was fit?

 

We play with just one holding midfielder and maybe Manny would be good in that role, I don’t know,  but from what I saw of him I liked him when he was driving us forward with his powerful runs. Possibly shackling him to a more disciplined could mean we don’t see the best of him. But until we see him play there how will we know for sure?

 

As I see it we’ve got Conlon and Joyce for holding midfielder. Manny and whitehead to the right of that and Burgess and Conlon for the left side. Some good  competition in there.

Edited by PV1973
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22 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

Conlon can also cover Joyce 

Yes, I'd been thinking that too.

Early last season, I remember being frustrated by Conlon as he seemed to be doing the same job as Joyce and we were too pedestrian.

All changed at half time v Exeter though!!

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Another feature of the two new signings is that they are both 26, which is possibly the peak age in any career.

It was noticeable during the dark years that we didn't have anyone at this stage of their career.

Pleased to note the change.

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Went down this morning and looked like either Harvey Bradbury or Jake Hyde were training with the squad. Dino and Rhys Lovett were training with Scott Brown. The morning session which I saw was mainly with the attacking players a couple of midfielders like Manny and Conlon. The defenders and midfielders like Joyce Burgess and Whitehead were absent or doing something in the gym possibly. As I assume the rule still applies that only 30 players can train at one time.

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