Black Lives Matter

[tommytunstall]

So now times are obviously different, do we pull everything down, does a black person in Bristol feel better treated now Colson has gone. What next Cecil Rhodes, Cromwell, Henry Doulton, Roy Sproson, Bomber Command, Queen Victoria.  Where do the advocates for removing statues see it ending.

[Davebrad]

21 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

"Your Country"

yes Gt. Britain... to which i'm proud of its history, not all of it admittedly, but history is history warts and all. if you want to pick and choose fine, but its got to be there to pick and choose...

[Iron Curtain]

11 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

maybe so, but the point is at the time it was normal...

And the point still is that there are many things that used to be considered normal that are considered abhorrent now.

[Davebrad]

3 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Do we celebrate sending children up chimneys ?

no, and we don't celebrate sending them down the mines, but they did do these things, and its worth remembering and also remembering we changed things...

[Iron Curtain]

5 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

So now times are obviously different, do we pull everything down, does a black person in Bristol feel better treated now Colson has gone. What next Cecil Rhodes, Cromwell, Henry Doulton, Roy Sproson, Bomber Command, Queen Victoria.  Where do the advocates for removing statues see it ending.

Given that Rhodes openly said that whites were a better race and the more of the world they occupied the better for humanity.... I suspect he would be on the list to come down.

[Davebrad]

3 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

And the point still is that there are many things that used to be considered normal that are considered abhorrent now.

that's a progressive world, learning from the past, but if you don't show a past, how can you make it better?

[Andyregs]

21 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

maybe so, but the point is at the time it was normal...

It was normal to the slave owners. There is more than one perspective here.

7 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

no, and we don't celebrate sending them down the mines, but they did do these things, and its worth remembering and also remembering we changed things...

No one is arguing we shouldn’t remember these things. 

[Davebrad]

12 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

So now times are obviously different, do we pull everything down, does a black person in Bristol feel better treated now Colson has gone. What next Cecil Rhodes, Cromwell, Henry Doulton, Roy Sproson, Bomber Command, Queen Victoria.  Where do the advocates for removing statues see it ending.

also who decides if a statue/memorial should be taken down? not a demonstration, premediately  it was a topic for years to remove it but was not lawfully decided either way...

[Davebrad]

7 minutes ago, Andyregs said:

It was normal to the slave owners. There is more than one perspective here.

as fosse69 mentioned children cleaning chimneys, and I mentioned them going down he mines, it was normal in those times, but its not now...

 

[Wrex]

1 hour ago, Iron Curtain said:

For those interested Harvard created a test a while ago that tests for UNCONSCIOUS bias. They have done versions for many things, but there is one for race if you select it.

You will need to be on a laptop or computer to do it... There are a load of questions before and after the test, but if you dont have time you can just push "decline to answer" to save time. The test itself only takes a few minutes.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/selectatest.html

I'm not asking anyone to share results as its personal and if you get an unconscious bias towards white people, don't worry, its doesn't mean you are racist, it means that subconsciously the messages that you are given every day have infiltrated.

But only when we know our subconscious bias can we work on it and improve.

An example of this is in football.

Evaluating a midfielder who happens to be black and coming to the conclusion that he is 'physical, athletic, instinctive, lazy'. When if he happened to be white then he'd be 'intelligent, visionary, technical'.

This is a subconscious thing that many people might not be aware that they are doing. Soccernonics is a brilliant book that touches on this:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617185-soccernomics

It's not just a racial thing. The author wrote about how blond haired wingers with colourful boots are more frequently spotted because they stand out. The defender who wears gloves is considered soft etc. The famous baseball book Moneyball was based on this principle, how talented players slipped through the cracks because they didn't fit the stereotypes.

Now of course that doesn't mean Messi isn't technical and intelligent or that Akifenwa hasn't made a career out of his strength and power.

I don't think we should look at past players and have that debate on them because people have already made their minds up on them. It's just something to think on when looking at players in the future.

[Andyregs]

1 hour ago, Davebrad said:

maybe so, but the point is at the time it was normal...

I’ll try again. It was normal to the slave owners. It wasn’t normal to those put on boats and sold as slaves I expect.

[Regal Beagle]

2 hours ago, Andyregs said:

The problem with the idea of being ‘colour blind’ so to speak, while being well meaning, does it help/allow people to miss or ignore the very real issues that minorities have? And at the same time we discuss this, we have people arguing a statue of a slaver is important because of history.

As a white guy, I’ve been racially abused a few times in my life and threatened. Not for being white, but for being Asian/terrorist/one of osamas boys! If I’ve experience that, i dread to think what minorities go through as a part of their lives. (Also shows the intelligence of your average racist). 
 

There isn’t one answer to it, though we definitely do get better with each generation. Personally I feel focusing on the poverty gap in society would have the most impact. Ethnic minorities are more likely to be in poverty, and so would benefit maybe proportionally more, but anyone in need would benefit regardless of who they are. Closest you’ll get to a real ‘colour blind’ solution.

Totally agree, I would consider myself "colour blind" not in a patronising fake way of pretending we're all the same colour, but in a 'i simply don't take it into account' kind of way - it's not perfect but as long as I'm open to and listen to concerns of people of each race then I've decided it's the best way for me to not be racist (or at least be consciously as least racist as possible).

 

1 hour ago, Andyregs said:

I understand your point. But they were wrong. We know better now.

If the Bristol people wanted their statues they would have left them up. The Russians and Iraqis didn’t petition for them down, they pulled them down.

The confederate statues are a disgrace. They were erected during the time of Jim Crow laws in order to intimidate and send a message to black people. It’s a really bad example to give for preserving history. I agree it’s probably likely many back then would not be untouched by slavery, at least the ruling classes anyway, but there is a difference between untouched and being a slaver/confederate and using a statue to celebrate such people or intimidate minorities. 

Why? Because we are becoming better hopefully. Some still want to celebrate such things unfortunately. Like I said before, nazism is a part of German history, but they go as far as banning such things. A statue celebrates a person. 

There are many Stalin/Lenin statues around the former soviet union. Whether that's from apathy or something else I don't know.

 

1 hour ago, tommytunstall said:

So now times are obviously different, do we pull everything down, does a black person in Bristol feel better treated now Colson has gone. What next Cecil Rhodes, Cromwell, Henry Doulton, Roy Sproson, Bomber Command, Queen Victoria.  Where do the advocates for removing statues see it ending.

 

I agree, it's the same argument as vigilantism, the majority (or at least a significant minority) might agree that something is good or bad, but a civil and democratic society must follow due process and the rule of law.

It's incomparable to the celebrations of liberation such as Saddam/Gaddafi in my view.

Apparently Owen Jones has tweeted a website which is targeting all sorts of statues including former royals - this is likely to get out of hand.

I've seen conservative voices asking whether it's acceptable to tear down the bust of Karl Marx on his grave in London.

What about the old adage - one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter - should we also discuss whether Che Guavara t-shirts/posters are acceptable? Nelson Mandela was once on a terrorist watchlist.

Are religious statues ok? many explicitly describe the acceptence of slave trading.

What about former political leaders with chequred (by today's standards) pasts?

 

To be clear - I'm not defending a statue of a slave trader and would be in favour of any being taken down and displayed in museums for educational/historical purposes, just that I don't agree with mobs of people destroying something because they really strongly believe they are justified.

 

Interesting yougov poll on the subject - 13% agree with the toppling, 40% agree with the removal but not the toppling, 33% disagree with the removal and the rest didn't know: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/philosophy/survey-results/daily/2020/06/08/1ab21/1

[Davebrad]

2 minutes ago, Andyregs said:

I’ll try again. It was normal to the slave owners. It wasn’t normal to those put on boats and sold as slaves I expect.

and I will answer again, it was normal for that time, for all the people in Bristol knew slaves were on such a ship, to the crew of that ship, it was normal in the country for slave trading, there were people against it, but not enough to stop the trade because in the ports area/towns it was a normal business, an industry, which a great number of people depended...and not just the trader.

[Andyregs]

4 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

and I will answer again, it was normal for that time, for all the people in Bristol knew slaves were on such a ship, to the crew of that ship, it was normal in the country for slave trading, there were people against it, but not enough to stop the trade because in the ports area/towns it was a normal business, an industry, which a great number of people depended...and not just the trader.

And it was normal in Germany to persecute the Jews and there weren’t enough people stopping it. I’m sure many people benefited from hitler being in power. But I’m also sure you’d agree that this wasn’t normal for the Jews or anything to be celebrated with a statue.

[Joe B]

2 hours ago, tommytunstall said:

So now times are obviously different, do we pull everything down, does a black person in Bristol feel better treated now Colson has gone. What next Cecil Rhodes, Cromwell, Henry Doulton, Roy Sproson, Bomber Command, Queen Victoria.  Where do the advocates for removing statues see it ending.

When people who ran a business that abducted people, tortured them, drowned them, and sold them like cattle no longer have statues, it can end.

No worries though mate, you lob Roy Sproson in there. Great argument.